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Post by drbill on Apr 19, 2024 14:30:45 GMT -6
There's a huge difference is procuring music for underscore vs. source, but that's kind of a different conversation. The real edge of the sword is BUSINESS and TECH and how they are colliding with many aspects of society overall, and for our discussion here - how they have collided with music specifically. I'd like to add a few REAL WORLD issues that have heated up IMMENSLY in the last few years of writing for media to your steps..... Step 3A - Hey wouldn't it be even cheaper to just NOT pay someone who wrote ANY song to use their song? Answer - yes.Step 3B - Hey wouldn't it be even cheaper to just NOT pay someone who wrote ANY song to use their song, and take their publishing too so that we can MAKE money instead of spend money? Answer - YES!!!!Step 3C - Hey wouldn't it be even cheaper to just NOT pay someone who wrote ANY song to use their song, and take their publishing too - and in addition, demand 50% of the writers - so that we can MAKE EVEN MORE money instead of spend money? Answer - Oh, HELL YES!!!Step 3D - Hey wouldn't it be even cheaper and WAY BETTER to just NOT pay someone who wrote ANY song to use their song, and take their publishing too - and in addition, demand 50% of the writers - AND now, ultimately, demand master rights as well so that we can re-market that music elsewhere under our own name / company so that we can MAKE WAY MORE money instead of spend money for what stupid musicians will easily give us for nothing? Answer - Oh, HELL YES - WE'RE GENIUS'S!!!That's been the progression over the last 5 years, an in reality, there's only one more step possible - giving up all ownership - all writers, all publishers and all master rights in perpetuity before hitting up the ultimate wall - the AI thing. The main benefit of AI right now is that it's pretty much instant, whereas with lowly musicians, you have to wait for them to write and produce it, then you have to convince them that selling their soul just to get something placed is the ultimate goal of their career(s). Overall, we as musicians are the ultimate fools. And I guess we deserve what we get, cause we've (as a whole) never looked after business. And now, AI is just so much easier. And so pathetic. Almost as pathetic as those who think that AI will not seriously impede - if not decimate - the music business overall and their creative goals in specific. I thought I had a plan a few years ago to turn things around for me and facilitate a way to make some decent to excellent money. Its taken 4+ years to get it off the ground, and just before the final push, AI has reared it's ugly head in such a way that rather than finish off the push, I'm seriously thinking about just flushing the last 4 years of almost full time work. Seriously frustrating and ultimately depressing, but there's no use throwing good money after bad as they say.... I'd rather spend what time and money I have left to enjoy NOT working. Riding the motorcycles, exploring with the jeep, spending time with family and friends. I wish everyone the best, but at this point in the world clock, I can't see spending much time and effort in making music for money. It's got to be about enjoyment at this point. The days of making money off music are all but done for any but the top AAA layer of musicians. The middle class is collapsing. I need a bourbon Make it a double John.....
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 19, 2024 14:57:45 GMT -6
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Post by bossanova on Apr 19, 2024 14:58:41 GMT -6
Just occurred to me. The sync industry is officially done. This I agree with. This was the one concession to the sky is falling stuff I made in my super lengthy posts yesterday. Sync is mostly dead and that's a bummer for songwriters like me who actually make money with sync. But honestly sync hasn't made sense for a long time in most cases. You're gonna pay me all this money to play a song for a couple minutes at a level barely above the noise floor? Ok. I'm not gonna say no. And remember, sync was really just a way to get around hiring proper composers to do proper scores. So we've gone from... Step 1 - The world's best composers writing for the world's best musicians recording in the world's best studios even for drivel TV shows. Step 2 - Hey wouldn't it be cheaper to just pay someone who wrote a great song to use their song? Step 3 - Hey wouldn't it be even cheaper to just pay someone who wrote ANY song to use their song? (Full disclosure, this is where I come in... haha) Step 4 - Hey wouldn't it be cheaper still to just have a computer generate the music that we've spent two decades devaluing to the point where nobody listens to it and it's mostly inaudible? Watch a show like Gunsmoke. It's incredible. Or the Twilight Zone. It's like a classical concert going on in the background. There will still be shows where the music is "the thing" (like Yellowstone or Sons Of Anarchy back in the day) but, yeah, the background music at the bar? That's over. Or soon will be. If y’all didn’t catch it back when it aired, check out season 1 of Human Target. Bear McCreary, all original theme and underscore for live orchestra, including (at the time) the largest orchestra ever assembled for series television for the season finale. Then they decided it was too expensive for Season 2, which is a drop in quality overall, and went with an electronic score. Cue cancellation. Added:
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Post by drbill on Apr 19, 2024 15:41:11 GMT -6
Haha!! Well done. Your "prompting" is originally you and I'd guess the song accurately (more or less) has the perspective you suggested it to have. . Scary indeed. I think we need to grab as much money right now while there is still a chance.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 19, 2024 16:41:38 GMT -6
Haha!! Well done. Your "prompting" is originally you and I'd guess the song accurately (more or less) has the perspective you suggested it to have. . Scary indeed. I think we need to grab as much money right now while there is still a chance. Ha - no disrespect to Gearslutz - it was just the first funny thing that popped in my head. Yeah - in all seriousness, though, this stuff is an existential threat to songwriters for sure...I mean, I guess time marches on, but you wonder what happens when all these advanced machines we make all of a sudden get viruses or fail, etc. Will there be anyone in 50 years that knows how to write a damn song? And outside of this industry, will human intelligence suffer? I mean - maybe we just get smarter since we have to program all this stuff...I currently have zero idea how this Bill Gates Lightning Box in front of me works and I have managed to stay the same level of stupid I started at...so maybe I'm freaking out over nothing. I could see using this for inspiration or when you're stuck on a line. The computer will no doubt throw out something cheesy, but at least it might get you started. Or melody wise (but most of the country stuff I heard sounded like what 65 year olds in NYC think country sounds like) for inspiration. But it's going to be a brand new world in the next 10 years.
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Post by chessparov on Apr 19, 2024 17:00:19 GMT -6
A whole new world.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 19, 2024 17:50:38 GMT -6
Don't close your eyes. Seriously. Don't you dare.
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 20, 2024 3:50:07 GMT -6
Haha!! Well done. Your "prompting" is originally you and I'd guess the song accurately (more or less) has the perspective you suggested it to have. . Scary indeed. I think we need to grab as much money right now while there is still a chance. I mean - maybe we just get smarter since we have to program all this stuff...I currently have zero idea how this Bill Gates Lightning Box in front of me works and I have managed to stay the same level of stupid I started at...so maybe I'm freaking out over nothing. I seriously doubt it, I created an AI bot about six or seven years ago to fix complier / debugging issues so I could experiment quickly. The whole point of AI is it's self learning and should be able to aid in tasks faster and better than you can. Issue is, I have no idea at this point how it works and from what I've heard neither do all of the original creators of these AI programs.
What's even worse is I really have no need to know how it works, if it hits an error within the space of a minute it will try several thousand permutations to fix the issue and that's about it. I can mull over the code its created but time is a factor so I move on to the next bit never really knowing about this "ghost in the machine". It certainly doesn't help me become a smarter, better programmer that's for sure. Also it is quite scary LOL..
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 20, 2024 5:50:38 GMT -6
I just tried Sumo.
Yes, it can make a facsimile of Radio 1 musical drivel.
But it’s completely and utterly devoid of anything I would describe as “art”
Is unimaginative, emotionless, crass and actually really childish sounding.
I simply cannot imagine what anyone is fearing?
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 20, 2024 6:04:16 GMT -6
I just tried Sumo. Yes, it can make a facsimile of Radio 1 musical drivel. But it’s completely and utterly devoid of anything I would describe as “art” Is unimaginative, emotionless, crass and actually really childish sounding. I simply cannot imagine what anyone is fearing? If that's the extent of what it can eternally do than so be it, nothing to worry about. However AI learns so chances are in a year, two or three things will be different. Also it's not the best AI out there, if some of the megacorp big budget dev's decides to target music then that's a whole different scenario. As for now as I said, it's a gimmick.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 20, 2024 7:07:36 GMT -6
I just tried Sumo. Yes, it can make a facsimile of Radio 1 musical drivel. But it’s completely and utterly devoid of anything I would describe as “art” Is unimaginative, emotionless, crass and actually really childish sounding. I simply cannot imagine what anyone is fearing? If that's the extent of what it can eternally do than so be it, nothing to worry about. However AI learns so chances are in a year, two or three things will be different. Also it's not the best AI out there, if some of the megacorp big budget dev's decides to target music then that's a whole different scenario. As for now as I said, it's a gimmick. Learn what?!? That's the whole point .... great art (in any form) simply isn't a function of "intelligence" per say. Intelligence is the engine of technique. Technique in isolation is pointless. All this AI creativity is going to do is to make humans fully appreciate the undefined concept of what it is to be human. We say about and artist .... they put all their "heart and soul" into that piece. Human 1 - AI 0 .... that score will never change on that front. Just my 2 cents and my thought on AI creativity.
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 20, 2024 7:12:30 GMT -6
If that's the extent of what it can eternally do than so be it, nothing to worry about. However AI learns so chances are in a year, two or three things will be different. Also it's not the best AI out there, if some of the megacorp big budget dev's decides to target music then that's a whole different scenario. As for now as I said, it's a gimmick. Learn what?!? That's the whole point .... great art (in any form) simply isn't a function of "intelligence" per say. Intelligence is the engine of technique. Technique in isolation is pointless. All this AI creativity is going to do is to make humans fully appreciate the undefined concept of what it is to be human. We say about and artist .... they put all their "heart and soul" into that piece. Human 1 - AI 0 .... that score will never change on that front. Just my 2 cents and my thought on AI creativity. I'm not disagreeing with that, AI will learn how to things at a higher fidelity and vary it's approach to mimic artistic styles. I'm not saying it's going to create a new riproar world changing, heartfelt piece of music. Although how many songs in the high streaming modern pop world achieve that?
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Post by cserrano on Apr 20, 2024 7:15:31 GMT -6
The AI-generated music sounds like music, no doubt. But I think its big downside is that it can't truly create and come up with a coherent and original sound; it just copies and imitates. But you know what? Artists themselves do a lot of copying and imitating already, don't they? So, it's not surprising that people are trying to make tools to do it for them. But here's the thing: maybe that's why so much of today's music feels kind of meh. There's just so much copying going on, you know? (And yes, I realize that this is coming from someone who is a microphone copier. But hey, we're talking art, not tech, right? ) It makes me wonder if we're headed toward an age of even more bland, uninspiring music and that it could be a good thing in the end. Because on the flip side, maybe it'll make truly original and creative music even more special and valuable. Perhaps one day newer generations will think making new music with actual instruments is old-school, but maybe that's exactly what'll make great music stand out again even more.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 20, 2024 8:21:23 GMT -6
The AI-generated music sounds like music, no doubt. But I think its big downside is that it can't truly create and come up with a coherent and original sound; it just copies and imitates. But you know what? Artists themselves do a lot of copying and imitating already, don't they? So, it's not surprising that people are trying to make tools to do it for them. But here's the thing: maybe that's why so much of today's music feels kind of meh. There's just so much copying going on, you know? (And yes, I realize that this is coming from someone who is a microphone copier. But hey, we're talking art, not tech, right? ) It makes me wonder if we're headed toward an age of even more bland, uninspiring music and that I could be a good thing in the end. Because on the flip side, maybe it'll make truly original and creative music even more special and valuable. Perhaps one day newer generations will think making new music with actual instruments is old-school, but maybe that's exactly what'll make great music stand out again even more. It sounds like Musak. Big difference. It sure as heck doesn’t sound like any of the music I make or I listen to.
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Post by chessparov on Apr 20, 2024 8:52:09 GMT -6
Look out Kenny G!
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Post by drbill on Apr 20, 2024 9:00:51 GMT -6
Musical AI is in its infancy. What you will hear in a year - quality and creatively wise - will bear minimal resemblance to what you are hearing now. Dev's are racing to be "the first to market", and as such, are releasing programs that are just starting to learn. And learn they will. Eventually, they will mature and become forces to recon with. The vast majority of the huge catalog of musical releases in 2024 are easily traced to copying, trends, and what went before. Not exactly a hotbed spark of creativity. That is essentially not much different than what AI is attempting to do.
Choose 20 random people off the street and ask them to write a song. Then ask AI. Tell me that any of the 20 will do a better job. That's highly unlikely.
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Post by chessparov on Apr 20, 2024 9:10:24 GMT -6
Not even in Nashville?
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 20, 2024 12:00:40 GMT -6
AI misses the point of music. Human to human connection. It’s by definition computer doodling. Aweful now and the more sophisticated it gets the more aweful is will become and get further and further away from making that critical connection to people. I’m not so easily impressed as some it seems. As for it’s ability to pump out musical drivel - that’s nothing new - there’s been human musicians capable of that all on their own
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Post by rowmat on Apr 20, 2024 12:56:02 GMT -6
AI is already beginning to feed the next generation of consumers. For most they won’t care where the music/movies/creative arts etc came from or how they were made. As already mentioned in a year or two it will fool more ‘professionals’ and reach a point where it has permeated so many industries to such an extent that people will stop thinking about it except those of us who remember the ‘old days’ when human beings actually created art.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 20, 2024 13:00:15 GMT -6
Ask a 20 year old what the world was like without the internet or a smart phone or streaming services or TikTok and they’ll look at you like you’re some kind of relic from the Stone Age.
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Post by kelk on Apr 20, 2024 13:18:43 GMT -6
Music as a consumer product in all it's forms will change drastically.
Music as a vibrational expression created by humans facing their own mortality will be fine.
I'll eat my words when AI gives me honest goosebumps.. those inexplicable moments that seem to capture our finite presence here.
For now I still prefer analog humans.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 20, 2024 13:56:49 GMT -6
Music as a consumer product in all it's forms will change drastically. Music as a vibrational expression created by humans facing their own mortality will be fine. I'll eat my words when AI gives me honest goosebumps.. those inexplicable moments that seem to capture our finite presence here. For now I still prefer analog humans. I agree that most human creatives will still want to create inspite of AI and some will make it their mission to push back against it. Most would rather record in a physical environment interacting with others than simply generate something from an AI script. The issue is ultimately return on investment and that has been in decline for most musicians for the last 20 odd years. The days of making a decent income from just selling your music alone went by the wayside well before the advent of AI. Unless you have a large enough loyal following and are able to tour and sellout shows to those who want to see a live performance then the likelihood of generating a liveable income just from the music itself is limited. Music festivals have been traditionally a major drawcard for musicians and audiences however here in Oz many festival have announced they are shutting down citing increasing costs and diminishing ticket sales. (Unless you’re Taylor Swift or say a band like King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard here) Now they have to compete with AI on top of everything else. With the cost of living rising along with the costs of running a studio how many artists are adequately cash flow positive in order to keep studio owners afloat themselves? And for that matter how many small/project studios alone generate enough income for the owner or are they also working other jobs? Most of the musicians we recorded either worked day jobs to save for their session fees or managed to obtain funding via government arts grants. Even that is now in decline as money tightens across the board.
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Post by ml on Apr 20, 2024 15:47:41 GMT -6
I think in its current state, its a useful creative tool, especially for indie musicians or solo artists. Songwriting is hard especially if you write alone. Its fun to dig deep into your songwriting book and test old ideas and lyrical concepts and see what it spits out.
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Post by M57 on Apr 20, 2024 16:56:53 GMT -6
I know there are a number of folks here who make money on sites like fivrr and airgigs, etc. Surely AI will be able to do that. Those jobs are also on the line, but the march of technology's sword always seems to have two edges, doesn't it? Very little has been mentioned about how AI can and will be leveraged not by industry, but by actual musicians. It shouldn't be that much of a shock. Musicians have been using technology to create drum parts for decades now. This change will likely be significant on an order of magnitude, so like Dr. Bill said, buckle up. If AI is half of what it's been cracked up to be, It's not possible for us to know what that future will sound like in the hands and under the care of musicians.
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 23, 2024 14:25:29 GMT -6
Can't say I have much to add. These AI-generated songs posted throughout this thread are pretty impressive. I can't tell they're AI. Modern music has become so formulaic and generic that it feels like it was made by an algorithm. When do you guys think this emphasis on formulas really took hold? I'm gonna say it started after American Idol. After 2002. The labels aren't about taking risks. And the more popular labels that sold Metal got, the more they tried to copy existing formulas and trends. I remember The End Records back when it was all sort of unique stuff 24+ years ago and I had to mail money orders in to buy stuff. Music does not have the significance that it once did. Before, if you scratched a cd, you were largely screwed. You'd have to buy another copy if you could even find one. More and more stuff that took a lot of effort for me to obtain keeps popping up on streaming. I never thought AOR like Nexx's Colours and Another Dawn would be easy to find 20 years after their release. And that's just the latest one to show up.
If I didn't mention it in any previous discussion, go check out Kurzweil on the Rogan podcast. He gives a much broader picture of the societal changes about to happen. There's no real going backwards overall. A lot of entertainment fans are going backwards though and pulling it off pretty well as creators in music and video. It's inevitable that eventually AI generates us all our own unique stuff. Creative industries aren't the only ones about to become more obsolete. There's so much more. UBI will probably be a big thing for the 2028 election season if it doesn't get setup before then. Money itself is going to be less and less relevant as new tech causes prices to plummet on just about everything. Right now we're seeing high prices and vastly reduced purchasing power compared to decades ago, but it's only temporary.
My guess is we start to see splits in society. Segments that want to keep tech at a certain level, sort of like an Amish mentality. Then other segments that want to transcend being a basic biological being and augment themselves with cybernetics and things like that. There shouldn't be much of an incentive for war and mass destruction since there won't be resource scarcity. Kurzweil was talking about 2029 being when AI really starts to equal higher human intelligence. Made me think I'd have another 4-5 years to decide whether to bother doing anything with audio. But who knows when AI will be able to apply classic production styles to something someone recorded. There's certainly a lot to think about. People will have a lot more freedom to use their time how they want while also not being constrained by lack of money. That will probably mean a lot more who want to work on music when they couldn't afford to before.
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