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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 27, 2019 20:44:31 GMT -6
Interesting, thanks Kcat.
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Post by bowie on Oct 27, 2019 20:53:50 GMT -6
I think there's a couple things that come into play. The main being that we've become so paranoid of marketing manipulation that many of us are instantly skeptical of new solutions, or anything being offered as an "upgrade". I got into a debate with someone the other day about cables and this person was so washed by these "truth about cables" videos that he swore all anyone needed was a $5 "amazon basics" Display Port cable. Well, he was wrong because these cables are rated as to the amount of data they can transmit over a certain length and I found out the hard way what happens when you ignore those specs in a demanding application, you get drop-outs. But, here we have people that are so ingrained in skepticism as a safety blanket, that they not only fail to give an honest look, but they advise others. They simply choose to believe person who confirmed their skepticism! Talk about blind faith. I get it though. I am instantly skeptical of new solutions, ESPECIALLY in the audio field. Another factor is, it's annoying to spend more money. Well, for some of us. There's some people to take joy in throwing money at things but most of us don't want to hear that we're missing out on something and that someone can get us to the next level, for a price. It's easier to just be dismissive. I'm guilty of it. I told my wife the expensive pillow she got me to help my chronic neck condition was marketing nonsense and wasn't going to help. But, I haven't had a bad night's sleep in 3 months so... |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 28, 2019 8:59:07 GMT -6
I get you Bowie, I'm skeptical about some things, especially new plug-ins. After buying so many I no longer use, I think way more than twice before even looking at new ones. The one thing that bugs me is when someone rains on the parade yet hasn't even tried the thing being discussed.
I would say most of the members here have quite a bit of experience, so I'm inclined to believe them when they're discussing gear and how it works for them.
As for the ToneRite, it's only $150, and you can probably sell it for $110 if you don't like it. So it's not as risky as buying a $1,500 mic you haven't tried.
I was just playing the Martin 000-16 I used the ToneRite on, and it's making me think of using it live instead of my Taylor Doyle Dykes Deluxe. Maybe I'll try it on the Taylor, just to see...
Your pillow story made me think of one of mine. Decades back a salesman at a HI-Fi shop recommended I buy a particular brand of speaker cable. I was incredulous at the suggestion. I used Monster cable then and I KNEW it can't make any difference. The speaker wire he recommended wasn't even one of the megabuck brands, just around twice as expensive as the Monster. He said bring it back if you don't like it. He'd given me some good suggestions in the past, so I said OK, I'll try it.
I played one favorite Tom Waits track where a few words were unintelligible, I figured he was just mumbling as usual, but the speaker cable made the words perfectly clear. I kept them, and kept an open mind from then on, even if I was a bit skeptical.
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Post by svart on Oct 29, 2019 7:59:19 GMT -6
I think there's a couple things that come into play. The main being that we've become so paranoid of marketing manipulation that many of us are instantly skeptical of new solutions, or anything being offered as an "upgrade". I got into a debate with someone the other day about cables and this person was so washed by these "truth about cables" videos that he swore all anyone needed was a $5 "amazon basics" Display Port cable. Well, he was wrong because these cables are rated as to the amount of data they can transmit over a certain length and I found out the hard way what happens when you ignore those specs in a demanding application, you get drop-outs. But, here we have people that are so ingrained in skepticism as a safety blanket, that they not only fail to give an honest look, but they advise others. They simply choose to believe person who confirmed their skepticism! Talk about blind faith. I get it though. I am instantly skeptical of new solutions, ESPECIALLY in the audio field. Another factor is, it's annoying to spend more money. Well, for some of us. There's some people to take joy in throwing money at things but most of us don't want to hear that we're missing out on something and that someone can get us to the next level, for a price. It's easier to just be dismissive. I'm guilty of it. I told my wife the expensive pillow she got me to help my chronic neck condition was marketing nonsense and wasn't going to help. But, I haven't had a bad night's sleep in 3 months so... The datarate certification being violated is NOT the same as believing "all cables are the same". If you knowingly bought a cable that can't handle a higher datarate, why would you expect it to work? It's not voodoo trickery, it's physics, and they're rated that way for a reason. As an engineer who primarily works in the field of high speed RF over conductors with a specialty in transmission line technologies, I can tell you that if a cable is rated for a specific digital data speed, it won't matter if it's a 5$ cable or a 5000$ cable, it WILL work as designed. (If it does not, then it's broken or a fake, with the latter being more common than you'd believe.) Why will it work? Because the datarate and bandwidth is pre-defined for most high-speed data protocols. I think you might assume that the datarate and/or bandwidth changes with usage, but almost all of these standards simply fill the unused bandwidth with noise patterns. You can't have zeros or ones filling unused data or else you'll get DC offsets, but that's another discussion. All of these standards use complex error correction as well, and it's generally the case that these operate at very low levels almost all of the time, but there is some point where they can't correct the errors induced by whatever cable problems or noise ingress that happens to degrade the signal, which is where you start getting dropouts. The physical cables are generally defined by the amount of crosstalk and shielding performance balanced with the amount of inductance, resistance and capacitance. All these things must be balanced for the cable to work correctly, and this is what truly defines the speed and bandwidth the cable can handle. But back to the first point you made that I agree with.. After years and years of being told that "XXXX miracle device will do XXXX" and finding out the hard way that XXXX miracle device did NOT do XXXX, I'm skeptical of most everything that is being sold to me as a miracle. And who did most of the selling? Exuberant everyman reviewers on the internet. Does that mean I believe they are lying? No, of course not, but if I can't hear the difference and you can't explain how something actually works in a technical fashion to me, why would you get mad at me for being skeptical? If you get pissy because I'm skeptical and instead of buckling down to explain why it works you go on tirades about being attacked, then maybe you're not as sure about your decisions as you want to believe. I'm sorry to be blunt about it, but bruised egos are not my problem. I get it, you like something and you want to tell others about it, but emotional damage because people don't readily accept it as gospel? That baffles me. So as a skeptic, an engineer, a musician and a recordist, I yet again ask, can anyone explain to me the details on how this works in technical way? Because I've spent way too much time trying to find ANY kind of report, whitepaper, analysis of this phenomenon at all. What did I find? NOTHING. There seems to be zero investigation into this phenomenon besides the typical forums full of folks who believe it to be true without anything more than "I hear it" and those skeptics who "don't hear it". |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 29, 2019 8:38:46 GMT -6
Well, all "folks" are not equal. My ego's not bruised, but I won't stand for anyone questioning my personal integrity. Suggestions and reviews can be very useful when you've come to know and trust the reviewers. As for scientific proof of things, I hear you. Of course it's better if there's data behind a statement made by a manufacturer. But on the other hand back in my audiophile days, I experienced adamant rejection, really nasty pushback and a couple of physical threats over ideas that years later became accepted and commonplace, without a single apology ever. I'm a musician, singer/songwriter/producer, not any kind of electrical engineer or physicist, so when it comes to something like the ToneRite or similar things, I'm only passing on my experience to other musicians. They can make of it whatever they want to. I made no claims of proof of anything. It so happens what this particular product promised was true in my case. I'm sorry I can't be of more help there. I do think that if museums that house priceless instruments feel it necessary to have those instruments played regularly to maintain them, I'd rather err on the side of caution and follow that example. This is a long read, but it explains a lot, bringing some light into the artists vs. scientists debates. www.fairobserver.com/more/science/neil-young-vinyl-lp-records-digital-audio-science-news-william-softky-39078/Some of us hear and notice things others can't. It doesn't mean it isn't there. Experience, training, DNA, talent, and an open mind all come into play. The ToneRite costs around $150. Is it worth trying? I can't figure that out for people, but since I found it worked, I thought to pass it on to my online friends. The "investigation" would have to be trying it for yourself. If $150 is too much for an experiment that might possibly help improve guitar tone of guitars not played often, well that's up to the individual. I can only say if you try it, I think you'll probably like it. I'm not upset in the least if someone " does not readily accept what I say as gospel", and I'm not looking for that by the way. I just won't stand for anyone insinuating I'm some kind of shill for a company. You're welcome to be as skeptical as you want. I'm looking forward to hearing the impressions of the guys here who ordered one. |
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Post by svart on Oct 29, 2019 8:55:55 GMT -6
Well, all "folks" are not equal. My ego's not bruised, but I won't stand for anyone questioning my personal integrity. Suggestions and reviews can be very useful when you've come to know and trust the reviewers. As for scientific proof of things, I hear you. Of course it's better if there's data behind a statement made by a manufacturer. But on the other hand back in my audiophile days, I experienced adamant rejection, really nasty pushback and a couple of physical threats over ideas that years later became accepted and commonplace, without a single apology ever. I'm a musician, singer/songwriter/producer, not any kind of electrical engineer or physicist, so when it comes to something like the ToneRite or similar things, I'm only passing on my experience to other musicians. They can make of it whatever they want to. I made no claims of proof of anything. It so happens what this particular product promised was true in my case. I'm sorry I can't be of more help there. I do think that if museums that house priceless instruments feel it necessary to have those instruments played regularly to maintain them, I'd rather err on the side of caution and follow that example. This is a long read, but it explains a lot, bringing some light into the artists vs. scientists debates. www.fairobserver.com/more/science/neil-young-vinyl-lp-records-digital-audio-science-news-william-softky-39078/Some of us hear and notice things others can't. It doesn't mean it isn't there. Experience, training, DNA, talent, and an open mind all come into play. The ToneRite costs around $150. Is it worth trying? I can't figure that out for people, but since I found it worked, I thought to pass it on to my online friends. The "investigation" would have to be trying it for yourself. If $150 is too much for an experiment that might possibly help improve guitar tone of guitars not played often, well that's up to the individual. I can only say if you try it, you'll probably like it. I did find an interesting thread at a violin forum where a violin maker/technician discussed the "sleepy violin" phenomenon which seems to be the analogy to the acoustic guitar version discussed in this thread. He didn't really take a side but did mention that a few musicians have said they experienced this and a few have said they haven't, some with the same instruments. He claimed he has attempted to do testing with various methods to figure it out but has not found any specific thing that might explain it. It went nowhere as the various daily changes in temp, moisture, finger and bow differences all conspired to defeat any possibility of repeatability needed to prove or disprove this phenomenon. He did go on to say that they've used advanced testing methods on vintage instruments over the years and have thoroughly disproven various other myths regarding lacquer changing the tone of the violins over time, as well as wood changing tones over time due to unknown processes. He seemed to insinuate that once a wood is made into a violin very little difference in the lacquer and wood structure happens and that most of the differences in tone are the strings, fingers and bow, which seems to make sense. I do notice that if I don't play any guitar for a while, acoustic or electric, the strings are higher pitched, but darker tone. Re-stretching them gets them in the right tension, but playing them knocks the tarnish off and they brighten up a tiny bit. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 29, 2019 9:18:41 GMT -6
Thanks svart, it is a bit of a mystery, for sure. The differences I noticed might be described as subtle with exceptions.
I've tried this on four guitars with varying results. One, after the ToneRite treatment was "too good" if that makes sense. I preferred it boomy and unbalanced, so I left it alone for a couple of months and it went back to its former sound.
Two of the guitars had a slightly better balance and a touch more sustain afterwards, which I liked. One sounded incredible after. That alone was worth the price of admission.
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Post by bowie on Oct 29, 2019 16:45:59 GMT -6
I think there's a couple things that come into play. The main being that we've become so paranoid of marketing manipulation that many of us are instantly skeptical of new solutions, or anything being offered as an "upgrade". I got into a debate with someone the other day about cables and this person was so washed by these "truth about cables" videos that he swore all anyone needed was a $5 "amazon basics" Display Port cable. Well, he was wrong because these cables are rated as to the amount of data they can transmit over a certain length and I found out the hard way what happens when you ignore those specs in a demanding application, you get drop-outs. But, here we have people that are so ingrained in skepticism as a safety blanket, that they not only fail to give an honest look, but they advise others. They simply choose to believe person who confirmed their skepticism! Talk about blind faith. I get it though. I am instantly skeptical of new solutions, ESPECIALLY in the audio field. Another factor is, it's annoying to spend more money. Well, for some of us. There's some people to take joy in throwing money at things but most of us don't want to hear that we're missing out on something and that someone can get us to the next level, for a price. It's easier to just be dismissive. I'm guilty of it. I told my wife the expensive pillow she got me to help my chronic neck condition was marketing nonsense and wasn't going to help. But, I haven't had a bad night's sleep in 3 months so... The datarate certification being violated is NOT the same as believing "all cables are the same". If you knowingly bought a cable that can't handle a higher datarate, why would you expect it to work? It's not voodoo trickery, it's physics, and they're rated that way for a reason. As an engineer who primarily works in the field of high speed RF over conductors with a specialty in transmission line technologies, I can tell you that if a cable is rated for a specific digital data speed, it won't matter if it's a 5$ cable or a 5000$ cable, it WILL work as designed. (If it does not, then it's broken or a fake, with the latter being more common than you'd believe.) Why will it work? Because the datarate and bandwidth is pre-defined for most high-speed data protocols. I think you might assume that the datarate and/or bandwidth changes with usage, but almost all of these standards simply fill the unused bandwidth with noise patterns. You can't have zeros or ones filling unused data or else you'll get DC offsets, but that's another discussion. All of these standards use complex error correction as well, and it's generally the case that these operate at very low levels almost all of the time, but there is some point where they can't correct the errors induced by whatever cable problems or noise ingress that happens to degrade the signal, which is where you start getting dropouts. The physical cables are generally defined by the amount of crosstalk and shielding performance balanced with the amount of inductance, resistance and capacitance. All these things must be balanced for the cable to work correctly, and this is what truly defines the speed and bandwidth the cable can handle. But back to the first point you made that I agree with.. After years and years of being told that "XXXX miracle device will do XXXX" and finding out the hard way that XXXX miracle device did NOT do XXXX, I'm skeptical of most everything that is being sold to me as a miracle. And who did most of the selling? Exuberant everyman reviewers on the internet. Does that mean I believe they are lying? No, of course not, but if I can't hear the difference and you can't explain how something actually works in a technical fashion to me, why would you get mad at me for being skeptical? If you get pissy because I'm skeptical and instead of buckling down to explain why it works you go on tirades about being attacked, then maybe you're not as sure about your decisions as you want to believe. I'm sorry to be blunt about it, but bruised egos are not my problem. I get it, you like something and you want to tell others about it, but emotional damage because people don't readily accept it as gospel? That baffles me. So as a skeptic, an engineer, a musician and a recordist, I yet again ask, can anyone explain to me the details on how this works in technical way? Because I've spent way too much time trying to find ANY kind of report, whitepaper, analysis of this phenomenon at all. What did I find? NOTHING. There seems to be zero investigation into this phenomenon besides the typical forums full of folks who believe it to be true without anything more than "I hear it" and those skeptics who "don't hear it". "Get pissy"? I don't get the hostility and I don't think you understood what I was saying in the first part. I stated that there are people who have gotten in the mindset that there are no differences in cables, and they don't understand they can be spec'd for various ratings. Is there something debatable about that? None of what you said seemed relevant to the interaction I was describing. Regarding the rest, I was able to make recordings and hear clear differences after tonerite use. It was a very moderate investment (got most of my money back for every one I bought and sold). The whole thing worked out very well for me. I'm not trying to sell them so if someone doesn't want to believe, that's not my concern at all. That's their marketing team's concern. |
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Post by svart on Oct 29, 2019 17:11:03 GMT -6
The datarate certification being violated is NOT the same as believing "all cables are the same". If you knowingly bought a cable that can't handle a higher datarate, why would you expect it to work? It's not voodoo trickery, it's physics, and they're rated that way for a reason. As an engineer who primarily works in the field of high speed RF over conductors with a specialty in transmission line technologies, I can tell you that if a cable is rated for a specific digital data speed, it won't matter if it's a 5$ cable or a 5000$ cable, it WILL work as designed. (If it does not, then it's broken or a fake, with the latter being more common than you'd believe.) Why will it work? Because the datarate and bandwidth is pre-defined for most high-speed data protocols. I think you might assume that the datarate and/or bandwidth changes with usage, but almost all of these standards simply fill the unused bandwidth with noise patterns. You can't have zeros or ones filling unused data or else you'll get DC offsets, but that's another discussion. All of these standards use complex error correction as well, and it's generally the case that these operate at very low levels almost all of the time, but there is some point where they can't correct the errors induced by whatever cable problems or noise ingress that happens to degrade the signal, which is where you start getting dropouts. The physical cables are generally defined by the amount of crosstalk and shielding performance balanced with the amount of inductance, resistance and capacitance. All these things must be balanced for the cable to work correctly, and this is what truly defines the speed and bandwidth the cable can handle. But back to the first point you made that I agree with.. After years and years of being told that "XXXX miracle device will do XXXX" and finding out the hard way that XXXX miracle device did NOT do XXXX, I'm skeptical of most everything that is being sold to me as a miracle. And who did most of the selling? Exuberant everyman reviewers on the internet. Does that mean I believe they are lying? No, of course not, but if I can't hear the difference and you can't explain how something actually works in a technical fashion to me, why would you get mad at me for being skeptical? If you get pissy because I'm skeptical and instead of buckling down to explain why it works you go on tirades about being attacked, then maybe you're not as sure about your decisions as you want to believe. I'm sorry to be blunt about it, but bruised egos are not my problem. I get it, you like something and you want to tell others about it, but emotional damage because people don't readily accept it as gospel? That baffles me. So as a skeptic, an engineer, a musician and a recordist, I yet again ask, can anyone explain to me the details on how this works in technical way? Because I've spent way too much time trying to find ANY kind of report, whitepaper, analysis of this phenomenon at all. What did I find? NOTHING. There seems to be zero investigation into this phenomenon besides the typical forums full of folks who believe it to be true without anything more than "I hear it" and those skeptics who "don't hear it". "Get pissy"? I don't get the hostility and I don't think you understood what I was saying in the first part. I stated that there are people who have gotten in the mindset that there are no differences in cables, and they don't understand they can be spec'd for various ratings. Is there something debatable about that? None of what you said seemed relevant to the interaction I was describing. Regarding the rest, I was able to make recordings and hear clear differences after tonerite use. It was a very moderate investment (got most of my money back for every one I bought and sold). The whole thing worked out very well for me. I'm not trying to sell them so if someone doesn't want to believe, that's not my concern at all. That's their marketing team's concern. The pissy comment wasn't directed at you, just the general public at large, sorry if it came across as criticizing you directly. Ok, I must have misunderstood your story because I thought you were trying to say that the person you were arguing with about a cable was trying to say that *any* cable would work regardless of rating. At least I hope that's not the case, because blatantly ignoring speed certifications WILL get you into trouble. However, my comment about a 5$ vs. 5000$ digital cable still stands.. If the cable is rated for the bandwidth you are using, then the price does not matter and the cheapest one will work because the specs create a lot of headroom as well as assuming the error correction will work as designed in most cases. Most cables will be spec'd for quite a bit above their operating speeds so that the largest tolerance cable that is made will still be well within specs as well. There are some cables that are completely counterfeit out there too. It's a very big problem in the commercial marketplace as well as the consumer marketplace on websites like Ebay, Amazon and Alibaba. This is where it pays to at least buy from a reputable dealer. So I think there will be unrated and lower rated cables that are certainly able to work at higher than rated speeds, but that's just a gamble on a per-cable basis. |
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Post by bowie on Oct 29, 2019 17:27:17 GMT -6
"Get pissy"? I don't get the hostility and I don't think you understood what I was saying in the first part. I stated that there are people who have gotten in the mindset that there are no differences in cables, and they don't understand they can be spec'd for various ratings. Is there something debatable about that? None of what you said seemed relevant to the interaction I was describing. Regarding the rest, I was able to make recordings and hear clear differences after tonerite use. It was a very moderate investment (got most of my money back for every one I bought and sold). The whole thing worked out very well for me. I'm not trying to sell them so if someone doesn't want to believe, that's not my concern at all. That's their marketing team's concern. The pissy comment wasn't directed at you, just the general public at large, sorry if it came across as criticizing you directly. Ok, I must have misunderstood your story because I thought you were trying to say that the person you were arguing with about a cable was trying to say that *any* cable would work regardless of rating. At least I hope that's not the case, because blatantly ignoring speed certifications WILL get you into trouble. However, my comment about a 5$ vs. 5000$ digital cable still stands.. If the cable is rated for the bandwidth you are using, then the price does not matter and the cheapest one will work because the specs create a lot of headroom as well as assuming the error correction will work as designed in most cases. Most cables will be spec'd for quite a bit above their operating speeds so that the largest tolerance cable that is made will still be well within specs as well. There are some cables that are completely counterfeit out there too. It's a very big problem in the commercial marketplace as well as the consumer marketplace on websites like Ebay, Amazon and Alibaba. This is where it pays to at least buy from a reputable dealer. So I think there will be unrated and lower rated cables that are certainly able to work at higher than rated speeds, but that's just a gamble on a per-cable basis. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, seems it was just misunderstanding. Regarding the original post, the person I was debating with believed that all higher rated Display Port cables were "marketing nonsense" and he did not understand that the higher ratings were there for greater data transmission and longer runs. This application was 1440 resolution at 144fps over 12'. The most common 12' DP cables were just not adequate and it was evident in the specs. I am in full agreement about the predatory nature of a lot of many "high-end" cable companies. I get a lot of questions about that and try to warn people. |
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Post by svart on Oct 29, 2019 17:31:12 GMT -6
The pissy comment wasn't directed at you, just the general public at large, sorry if it came across as criticizing you directly. Ok, I must have misunderstood your story because I thought you were trying to say that the person you were arguing with about a cable was trying to say that *any* cable would work regardless of rating. At least I hope that's not the case, because blatantly ignoring speed certifications WILL get you into trouble. However, my comment about a 5$ vs. 5000$ digital cable still stands.. If the cable is rated for the bandwidth you are using, then the price does not matter and the cheapest one will work because the specs create a lot of headroom as well as assuming the error correction will work as designed in most cases. Most cables will be spec'd for quite a bit above their operating speeds so that the largest tolerance cable that is made will still be well within specs as well. There are some cables that are completely counterfeit out there too. It's a very big problem in the commercial marketplace as well as the consumer marketplace on websites like Ebay, Amazon and Alibaba. This is where it pays to at least buy from a reputable dealer. So I think there will be unrated and lower rated cables that are certainly able to work at higher than rated speeds, but that's just a gamble on a per-cable basis. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, seems it was just misunderstanding. Regarding the original post, the person I was debating with believed that all higher rated Display Port cables were "marketing nonsense" and he did not understand that the higher ratings were there for greater data transmission and longer runs. This application was 1440 resolution at 144fps over 12'. The most common 12' DP cables were just not adequate and it was evident in the specs. I am in full agreement about the predatory nature of a lot of many "high-end" cable companies. I get a lot of questions about that and try to warn people. Oh oh ok, yes I misunderstood. My apologies. Yes, ignoring a rating is just insanity, but buying crazy high priced digital cables is unnecessary. |
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