|
|
Post by geoff738 on Mar 16, 2014 10:05:08 GMT -6
Recording - how (i've never even tried to plug my ribbon in a M/S configuration), when - what applications might it shine? Etc. I have a crap space, so close micing is the way to go, but for those in better rooms?
Mixing - I guess the closest I've come to even thinking M/S techniques is LCR panning - which I don't think is the same thing. AT all - but it does kinda/sorta get you treating the center and the sides, so there may be a sliver of similar thinking? I could be wrong. So, again, when do you get to thinking to reach for M/S tools (and what are you using?) and what are you doing with them. And what are the pitfalls/ drawbacks/ things to be aware of.
Mastering - how important is this stuff in the mastering guys toolkit, and when would you as a mixer leave it up to them (if ever)?
Ok, I know virtually nothing about this other than rudimentary stereo widening tricks.
So please edumacate me!
Thanks all.
Cheers,
Geoff
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2014 10:19:32 GMT -6
It's really a cool effect...although, it really only works for me in small acoustic productions.
Set up a condenser and point it at your instrument. Set up the ribbon above it facing the sides - like the capsules are perpendicular. Record...Then take the ribbon track and duplicate it. Then flip the phase on the duplicated track. Group the two ribbons together and mix them in with the condenser signal. Really freaky psychoacoustic things happening!
|
|
|
|
Post by unit7 on Mar 16, 2014 11:40:36 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2014 13:21:48 GMT -6
Ah...yes...that's kind of important...
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Mar 16, 2014 13:57:48 GMT -6
I recently recorded some acoustic tracks that went up to a studio in NY, the guys up there were calling down wanting to know what the hell I'd done to make the acoustic sound so wide, but when they put it in mono it sounded just as good. Being a little pecker head, I just said, "oh man it's just in the players fingers  ". They were puzzled, but I thought if they couldn't figure it out I wasn't gonna tell em. Besides, in pre production convo's they were being royal A-holes, funny how nice they were when they wanted to know my technique. But this is what I did, it's important to duplicate the condenser/ribbon track and flip the phase on the original and hard pan L/R. You can also setup aux tracks to do the exact same thing and feed it all into a stereo track if you don't want to give your secrets away, thus being what I did for the folks up in NY   |
|
|
|
Post by henge on Mar 16, 2014 14:27:02 GMT -6
You know what I want to know, who's the guy that figured this technique out?
Edit: just read the article. It was Blumlein.
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2014 15:09:22 GMT -6
I recently recorded some acoustic tracks that went up to a studio in NY, the guys up there were calling down wanting to know what the hell I'd done to make the acoustic sound so wide, but when they put it in mono it sounded just as good. Being a little pecker head, I just said, "oh man it's just in the players fingers ". They were puzzled, but I thought if they couldn't figure it out I wasn't gonna tell em. Besides, in pre production convo's they were being royal A-holes, funny how nice they were when they wanted to know my technique. But this is what I did, it's important to duplicate the condenser/ribbon track and flip the phase on the original and hard pan L/R. You can also setup aux tracks to do the exact same thing and feed it all into a stereo track if you don't want to give your secrets away, thus being what I did for the folks up in NY Exactly why I didn't want to work with those guys. And I don't even know who they are, but I could only imagine. |
|
|
|
Post by jazznoise on Mar 16, 2014 15:23:56 GMT -6
M/S EQ is a really good tool for:
Stereo Arrays
Mix Bus
Hard Panned instruments on buses (Guitars, backing vocals)
Often on a drum kit bringing up the high shelf for an XY pair can add the brightness you wanted, but make things like the hat a bit abrasiveness. Since the hat is probably closer to center than the sides, boosting a shelf on the sides can help.
If you want a narrow kick sound, hipassing or low shelving off the sides a bit can help!
For guitar buses and stuff it may or may not be necessary, but it's a quick way to get bass balance across the stereo spectra.
For those running VST's, my M/S EQ of choice is Variety Of Sound's Baxter EQ. If you want to try any FX in M/S, get the +Matrix plugin and try running stuff through it. Delays on the centre of a stereo bus or only having chorus on the sides can add a lot. It's worth investigating!
|
|
|
|
Post by gouge on Mar 16, 2014 16:00:28 GMT -6
for me it's a part of my drum mic array. i had tried a few stereo methods out front and m/s was the sound in my head so i run with that now.
bax eq is a good one! free to boot. while you're there get nasty dla as well.oh and ferric, tesla, density....... excellent plugs all round.
not tried m/s on acoustic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2014 16:03:27 GMT -6
I bet that's amazing as an extra room setup for Drums
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Mar 16, 2014 16:10:39 GMT -6
I recently recorded some acoustic tracks that went up to a studio in NY, the guys up there were calling down wanting to know what the hell I'd done to make the acoustic sound so wide, but when they put it in mono it sounded just as good. Being a little pecker head, I just said, "oh man it's just in the players fingers ". They were puzzled, but I thought if they couldn't figure it out I wasn't gonna tell em. Besides, in pre production convo's they were being royal A-holes, funny how nice they were when they wanted to know my technique. But this is what I did, it's important to duplicate the condenser/ribbon track and flip the phase on the original and hard pan L/R. You can also setup aux tracks to do the exact same thing and feed it all into a stereo track if you don't want to give your secrets away, thus being what I did for the folks up in NY Exactly why I didn't want to work with those guys. And I don't even know who they are, but I could only imagine. Mmmhmmm....... It was pretty funny John... they were about to go crazy trying to figure out what I'd done, even the lady was trying to get me to give them more info, I just kept saying the same thing |
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Mar 16, 2014 20:29:15 GMT -6
Should be noted, that while they work on similar principles...M/S processing of a stereo signal should likely be a seperate topic from M/S mic'ing techniques and the matrix needed to decode that. RME's interfaces have a built in M/S decoder for mic'ing...I've never used it (the decoder). I find the mic'ing seriously limited. What it effectively give you is a kind of "Stereo like" sound that disappears in mono...which used subtley, can be wonderful...but, if you really want something to sound stereo, you do NOT want M/S...I consider it like "mono plus". The most use I've had is like a singer songwriter type acoustic where you don't want the width and resultant cancellation because the single guitar drives the song...but, you want a little ambience (from the side mics)... M/S processing of stereo signals, I do a lot...though a lot ranks under "problem solving". Ability to manipulate the snare in the overheads...or as mentioned brightening the sides without affecting the snare in the middle...if I'm given a drum loop, a M/S EQ with separate volumes can allow me to pull the snare and kick up or down without affecting the rest. Even pull just the kick up by bumping the lows on the mid and pulling the overall mid volume down...thus, bringing the snare down and kick up....lots of neat application of the processing side--but, again, problem solving more than anything. I mixed for decades with no mid side processing...I could do it again--you know? |
|
|
|
Post by WKG on Mar 16, 2014 22:51:40 GMT -6
I've been doing a good bit of mid side recently. BX Digital XL V2 from Plugin Alliance is great tool for this. They have quite few M/S oriented plugins that make it easy. Lately I've been using the C4 with a modified Apex205 ribbon, great on vocals, acoustic guitar.
|
|
awtac
Full Member
Posts: 37 
|
Post by awtac on Mar 17, 2014 7:06:21 GMT -6
the obvious focus on M/S is mono compatibility, but I would suggest these days, the attraction to the average user would be the ability to mix mics for stereo. This is a two fold advantage from a pragmatic point where you dont NEED matched pairs of mics, but also from a creative point where you might have a real cool sounding fig 8 that you can mix with a real cool sounding cardioid. The first obvious example that would come to mind is being able to blend the detail of a condenser in cardioid or hyper with the smoothness of a ribbon in fig 8 for stereo. A u89 and a 4038 together make for a real cool thing. Of course you cant really do things like this with XY, ORTF or even blumlein without completely skewing the stereo image. MS has a world of possibility once you get the hang of it.
One other thing to note, I imagine most people are just copying tracks in a DAW, but if you are processing your MS signal analog, all MS decoding absolutely does not sound the same and is worth listening time for sure. I have listened to alot of different MS decoders over the last many years and Id guess most people would find a personal favorite if given the choice to listen to a few.
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 17, 2014 7:56:59 GMT -6
I've yet to actually try mid-side, but every time I have tried two mics, I end up using one. Obviously, I don't know what I'm doing yet, but I'll try this for fun sometime down the road a little. I think it would be useful for singer/songwriter material with subtle background parts, but for songs with lots of racks and electric instruments, I like plain old mono acoustic guitar.
I know for a fact that on Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada", the vocal mic was a Neumann U67, and the guitar mic was a stereo AKG C24. How does that stereo mic work? I don't see how that could be "mid-sided", or am I wrong? I consider that track my benchmark. If I can get close to that sound, I'm not looking for anything more.
|
|
|
|
Post by gouge on Mar 17, 2014 8:10:16 GMT -6
the c24 is the mic on my want list for this type of stuff. c414 seems to work pretty good and i can afford them.
c24 has 2 swivel heads mounted one abovethe other with 9 polar patters per head. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Mar 17, 2014 10:35:57 GMT -6
No need to "school" you. Sounds like others have that covered. I will just put in my $.02. I generally really don't like M/S recorded sources - other than occasional a full ensemble in a hall, but even then....
Always sounds fake and gimmicky to me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 11:06:15 GMT -6
Anyone ever done this for horns? I thought about picking up a ribbon to go along with my CV4, but i have the feeling that M/S mic'ing requires a great sounding room first. thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Mar 17, 2014 11:14:49 GMT -6
Anyone ever done this for horns? I thought about picking up a ribbon to go along with my CV4, but i have the feeling that M/S mic'ing requires a great sounding room first. thoughts? Depends in what you're doing with it. If you're wanting a really wet sound then oh yeah. But if you're just looking for a spacious feeling any room will do. |
|
|
|
Post by geoff738 on Mar 17, 2014 13:15:40 GMT -6
It's really a cool effect...although, it really only works for me in small acoustic productions. Set up a condenser and point it at your instrument. Set up the ribbon above it facing the sides - like the capsules are perpendicular. Record...Then take the ribbon track and duplicate it. Then flip the phase on the duplicated track. Group the two ribbons together and mix them in with the condenser signal. Really freaky psychoacoustic things happening! John, you're using Login, no? Have you fiddled with the direction mixer plug? I think it's supposed to function as a M/S decoder, but it's one of those things in Logic I have yet to fiddle with. Cheers, Geoff |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Mar 17, 2014 13:56:17 GMT -6
Anyone ever done this for horns? I thought about picking up a ribbon to go along with my CV4, but i have the feeling that M/S mic'ing requires a great sounding room first. thoughts? Depends in what you're doing with it. If you're wanting a really wet sound then oh yeah. But if you're just looking for a spacious feeling any room will do. IMO, if you're looking for a spaciously bad sound, then yeah go ahead and M/S in a bad room. To me, the room makes a HUGE difference with MS recording. If you're planning on pulling up the Side mic/channels to any degree of stereo-ism, then the room comes into play big time. If you're not, just record the Mid mic in mono and be done with it. (My personal preference.) If I want stereo, I go SDC off the 12th fret, and a LDC over the R shoulder of the guitarist pointed at the hole. No gimmicky phasiness, sweet sound. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 17, 2014 14:32:20 GMT -6
It's really a cool effect...although, it really only works for me in small acoustic productions. Set up a condenser and point it at your instrument. Set up the ribbon above it facing the sides - like the capsules are perpendicular. Record...Then take the ribbon track and duplicate it. Then flip the phase on the duplicated track. Group the two ribbons together and mix them in with the condenser signal. Really freaky psychoacoustic things happening! John, you're using Login, no? Have you fiddled with the direction mixer plug? I think it's supposed to function as a M/S decoder, but it's one of those things in Logic I have yet to fiddle with. Cheers, Geoff No - I have logic, but use PT's. Logic is the least logical to me! |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 17, 2014 14:33:12 GMT -6
Depends in what you're doing with it. If you're wanting a really wet sound then oh yeah. But if you're just looking for a spacious feeling any room will do. IMO, if you're looking for a spaciously bad sound, then yeah go ahead and M/S in a bad room. To me, the room makes a HUGE difference with MS recording. If you're planning on pulling up the Side mic/channels to any degree of stereo-ism, then the room comes into play big time. If you're not, just record the Mid mic in mono and be done with it. (My personal preference.) If I want stereo, I go SDC off the 12th fret, and a LDC over the R shoulder of the guitarist pointed at the hole. No gimmicky phasiness, sweet sound. Yeah, I would tend to agree. |
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Mar 17, 2014 15:02:22 GMT -6
Depends in what you're doing with it. If you're wanting a really wet sound then oh yeah. But if you're just looking for a spacious feeling any room will do. IMO, if you're looking for a spaciously bad sound, then yeah go ahead and M/S in a bad room. To me, the room makes a HUGE difference with MS recording. If you're planning on pulling up the Side mic/channels to any degree of stereo-ism, then the room comes into play big time. If you're not, just record the Mid mic in mono and be done with it. (My personal preference.) If I want stereo, I go SDC off the 12th fret, and a LDC over the R shoulder of the guitarist pointed at the hole. No gimmicky phasiness, sweet sound. Me and you could be on two different ideas of what he meant, and I could be on the complete wrong side of it. I've used the technique in large medium and smaller rooms, I know when the room gets larger, the better the room has to be. And that's just in my experience. I've done it in some untreated smaller rooms and came out with a nice stereo sound, maybe I just read the question wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 17, 2014 21:46:25 GMT -6
I should clarify - I wasn't really agreeing with the "small room = bad", but agreeing that in a more dense mix, I agree with stereo miking with two mics on the 12th and body. M/S only really seems to work for me when it's something like a one guitar, guit/vocal...
|
|
". They were puzzled, but I thought if they couldn't figure it out I wasn't gonna tell em. Besides, in pre production convo's they were being royal A-holes, funny how nice they were when they wanted to know my technique. 
