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Post by drbill on Feb 17, 2021 10:08:38 GMT -6
Another time was hiking around the Mono Lake area in late September, Lovely area. Rode off-road motorcycles in that area a lot. I've been camping / backpacking in the Sierra's in mid to late September many times. It's actually my favorite time of year to go there. But ANYthing can happen at that point in the year. One time when we hit bad weather, we lucked out and found an abandoned pack station tent to huddle in overnight, but quickly went back down to lower elevations the next day as soon as the rain / snow stopped. That weekend several died of exposure. They were not ready for weather. In short and hiking sandals. RIP. The mountain country is no joke. LOL
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Post by svart on Feb 17, 2021 10:50:07 GMT -6
Another time was hiking around the Mono Lake area in late September, Lovely area. Rode off-road motorcycles in that area a lot. I've been camping / backpacking in the Sierra's in mid to late September many times. It's actually my favorite time of year to go there. But ANYthing can happen at that point in the year. One time when we hit bad weather, we lucked out and found an abandoned pack station tent to huddle in overnight, but quickly went back down to lower elevations the next day as soon as the rain / snow stopped. That weekend several died of exposure. They were not ready for weather. In short and hiking sandals. RIP. The mountain country is no joke. LOL I've been hiking in all kinds of country around the world and this one really opened my eyes. It's a strange feeling to be maybe 1.5 miles from your car, but it's 2500ft down a slope and you just can't get to it unless you backtrack 6 miles or push through unknown terrain. I don't have a picture, but about a mile into the trail read a sign that said "WILDERNESS BOUNDARY THERE IS NO HELP YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN FROM THIS POINT". But you're right. Some of the most beautiful scenery I've seen. A few days later I did Lundy Canyon out to lake helen. Amazing hike but kinda busy.
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Post by matt@IAA on Feb 17, 2021 12:45:08 GMT -6
As of 8:04 am, we have power but not confident in it lasting Be safe man, we have had power on and off now after 32 hours out. Waters gone now though.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 17, 2021 14:34:04 GMT -6
The mountain country is no joke. LOL I live and breath it. It's the best. I've never felt that isolated in any mountain wilderness area of which I've been in many. But grew up in them. Now if you want real isolation, go to the Maze in Utah. You'll be greeted with this sign: M~D~U-29.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr Its damn remote. And literally a maze of canyons. M~D~U-3.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr The mountains to me aren't too bad to get out of. Just go down hill till you hit water and follow it out. You'll always find people that way every time. There...not so much. Might not be water. Might be too much water suddenly(flash flooding). There are no people in general. Deserts are just way more isolating to me. Wyoming is the same way. You could literally break down and be 50+ miles from the nearest highway much less another person. I love it Okay getting side tracked sorry for the thread jack.
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Post by Quint on Feb 17, 2021 15:16:16 GMT -6
At my house here in Austin, power went out at 2 am Monday morning and has never come back. We're charging phones in the car. It's 35 degrees in the house. We also lost water earlier today now too...
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Post by svart on Feb 17, 2021 15:20:11 GMT -6
The mountain country is no joke. LOL I live and breath it. It's the best. I've never felt that isolated in any mountain wilderness area of which I've been in many. But grew up in them. Now if you want real isolation, go to the Maze in Utah. You'll be greeted with this sign: ~DU-29.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr Its damn remote. And literally a maze of canyons. ~D~U-3.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr The mountains to me aren't too bad to get out of. Just go down hill till you hit water and follow it out. You'll always find people that way every time. There...not so much. Might not be water. Might be too much water suddenly(flash flooding). There are no people in general. Deserts are just way more isolating to me. Wyoming is the same way. You could literally break down and be 50+ miles from the nearest highway much less another person. I love it Okay getting side tracked sorry for the thread jack. Slot canyons are on my list of trips. I'm not sure whether my next trip will be out to the desert again or to the PNW to see mt. adams though. Any suggestions for good slot canyons?
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 17, 2021 15:30:22 GMT -6
It was fun while it lasted. Went out again at 2:52pm.
Interestingly, I am the only one of my coworkers who all live in surrounding communities to have lost power at all. This os really not much of “sharing the burden”. That’s what is bothering me the most. We have only had power for 6hrs 10 mins of the last 44 hrs and their service has been uninterrupted. Our estimate of restoration is now 5:15pm TOMORROW,
At least I got a hot shower.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 17, 2021 15:36:04 GMT -6
Damn. Hang in there people. When we lose it here, it's from ice buildup bringing down trees and power lines, never from extreme cold demand. That may be what we have tomorrow.
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Post by matt@IAA on Feb 17, 2021 15:41:54 GMT -6
The lack of preparation by ERCOT is pathetic. There is no rolling outages, it’s a total crapshoot.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 17, 2021 16:18:15 GMT -6
The lack of preparation by ERCOT is pathetic. There is no rolling outages, it’s a total crapshoot. This is exactly how I feel.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 17, 2021 16:34:18 GMT -6
I live and breath it. It's the best. I've never felt that isolated in any mountain wilderness area of which I've been in many. But grew up in them. Now if you want real isolation, go to the Maze in Utah. You'll be greeted with this sign: ~DU-29.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr Its damn remote. And literally a maze of canyons. ~D~U-3.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr The mountains to me aren't too bad to get out of. Just go down hill till you hit water and follow it out. You'll always find people that way every time. There...not so much. Might not be water. Might be too much water suddenly(flash flooding). There are no people in general. Deserts are just way more isolating to me. Wyoming is the same way. You could literally break down and be 50+ miles from the nearest highway much less another person. I love it Okay getting side tracked sorry for the thread jack. Slot canyons are on my list of trips. I'm not sure whether my next trip will be out to the desert again or to the PNW to see mt. adams though. Any suggestions for good slot canyons? Since you'd be coming a long ways, I'd hit up the main ones as they are right south of Escalante and all right next to eachother. Road is also easy to drive unless it's rained. Peek a boo, Spooky, and Brimestone are all right next to each other as is Zebra just a few miles up the road. Zebra is only 11'' wide in some places! They run to go through and not hard to get to. From there...the world is your oyster. There are a ton. Some will be dependent on the vehicle you have. Nothing is impossible to get too but if you don't have a nice 4wd you could get in trouble in spots. The Joint Trail in Canyonlands is cool but to get to it from the south side is not something you'd want to do in an average vehicle due to a few spots on the trail. But its a beautiful hike and then take it to Druid Arch. While you're in beef basin keep your eyes open and you'll spot countless cliff dwellings.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 17, 2021 16:35:09 GMT -6
It was fun while it lasted. Went out again at 2:52pm. Interestingly, I am the only one of my coworkers who all live in surrounding communities to have lost power at all. This os really not much of “sharing the burden”. That’s what is bothering me the most. We have only had power for 6hrs 10 mins of the last 44 hrs and their service has been uninterrupted. Our estimate of restoration is now 5:15pm TOMORROW, At least I got a hot shower. wow that doesn't seem right.
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Post by teejay on Feb 17, 2021 16:41:03 GMT -6
I live and breath it. It's the best. I've never felt that isolated in any mountain wilderness area of which I've been in many. But grew up in them. Now if you want real isolation, go to the Maze in Utah. You'll be greeted with this sign: ~DU-29.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr Its damn remote. And literally a maze of canyons. ~D~U-3.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr The mountains to me aren't too bad to get out of. Just go down hill till you hit water and follow it out. You'll always find people that way every time. There...not so much. Might not be water. Might be too much water suddenly(flash flooding). There are no people in general. Deserts are just way more isolating to me. Wyoming is the same way. You could literally break down and be 50+ miles from the nearest highway much less another person. I love it Okay getting side tracked sorry for the thread jack. Slot canyons are on my list of trips. I'm not sure whether my next trip will be out to the desert again or to the PNW to see mt. adams though. Any suggestions for good slot canyons? From that sign and picture, your definition of "good" must be completely different from mine.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 17, 2021 17:14:05 GMT -6
At my house here in Austin, power went out at 2 am Monday morning and has never come back. We're charging phones in the car. It's 35 degrees in the house. We also lost water earlier today now too... Good luck brother. Stay warm.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 17, 2021 17:14:11 GMT -6
On again. It’s power roulette.
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Post by Quint on Feb 17, 2021 17:16:13 GMT -6
The lack of preparation by ERCOT is pathetic. There is no rolling outages, it’s a total crapshoot. Yeah, and ERCOT was told that they should winterize facilities back in 2011, last time we had a situation like this.
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 17, 2021 19:54:14 GMT -6
[..] On our way out of the trailhead at the other end of the trail, a guy was walking down the road and he stopped and looked at us and said "were you two just up on the ridge trail?" "yeah, we were just up there".. He then said "Wow, nobody does that trail anymore.. It's way too dangerous." It's at moments like this that I would want someone to yell, "then why don't you guys put up a sign at the trailhead that says, 'Wow, nobody does this trail anymore'!!"
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 17, 2021 20:03:36 GMT -6
The lack of preparation by ERCOT is pathetic. There is no rolling outages, it’s a total crapshoot. Yeah, and ERCOT was told that they should winterize facilities back in 2011, last time we had a situation like this. I even read they had been warned 22 yrs prior to THAT, so 1989! I don't know the veracity of all that, but seems pretty wild.
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 17, 2021 20:04:01 GMT -6
On again. It’s power roulette. Man, Greg, I hope it stays on this time.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 17, 2021 20:19:02 GMT -6
On again. It’s power roulette. Man, Greg, I hope it stays on this time. I was just telling Bat Lanyard that I really have nothing to complain about if I start considering that it has been cold in my house. If start by understanding the “in my house part”, then the rest of it isn’t that big of a deal. This is a temporary inconvenience for me and my wife. For many it is truly a life or death situation.
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Post by Quint on Feb 18, 2021 9:14:01 GMT -6
Yeah, and ERCOT was told that they should winterize facilities back in 2011, last time we had a situation like this. I even read they had been warned 22 yrs prior to THAT, so 1989! I don't know the veracity of all that, but seems pretty wild. www.cbsnews.com/news/wind-turbines-texas-power-outage-electrical-grid/It's pretty disingenuous to blame renewables when natural gas supply failure was the primary cause.
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Post by svart on Feb 18, 2021 9:44:54 GMT -6
Not true at all. NG saved the day by taking up the slack of 35% drop in production from the frozen windmills.
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Post by matt@IAA on Feb 18, 2021 9:52:22 GMT -6
It’s complicated. ERCOT plans winter capacity, we had 67GW of thermal in the plan. They also planned for peak average wind contribution over the winter of around 6GW. With load and all backup and that wind our total resources were 82GW.
Previous all time high was 74GW in august of 2019. Should be ok right?
Well going into Sunday, we had some units offline due to forced / unplanned maintenance. It happens.
And then Sunday night at the peak we only hit 69 GW of load with 9 GW of wind. I watched it peak, then demand started dropping as people went to bed. I thought we were through it, so I went to bed. Wind dropped off and load didn’t drop with it. Frequency dropped and ERCOT didn’t shed load in time and 14GW tripped because they couldn’t keep up with demand. Those are still coming back online. We also lost 1.3GW of power at south Texas nuclear because of winter related issues (frozen sensor line to the boiler feedwater pump).
We’ve been limping along at about 45GW of power. Lots of plants couldn’t run at max because of the cold, and shortage in gas. Low power exacerbated gas shortage because you need power to produce gas. This in turn made it more difficult to run the gas powered generation.
It’s a multi layer problem. I think the truth is that this is just the most widespread cold event we have had maybe in 100 years, and we just aren’t equipped to handle it. The more I think about it the more I think a load event was inevitable. Monday was a LOT colder than Sunday. I don’t think we had enough capacity at all regardless. I wonder what the narrative would be if ercot had preemptively shed load and we limped through this in an orderly fashion.
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Post by svart on Feb 18, 2021 10:07:54 GMT -6
It’s complicated. ERCOT plans winter capacity, we had 67GW of thermal in the plan. They also planned for peak average wind contribution over the winter of around 6GW. With load and all backup and that wind our total resources were 82GW. Previous all time high was 74GW in august of 2019. Should be ok right? Well going into Sunday, we had some units offline due to forced / unplanned maintenance. It happens. And then Sunday night at the peak we only hit 69 GW of load with 9 GW of wind. I watched it peak, then demand started dropping as people went to bed. I thought we were through it, so I went to bed. Wind dropped off and load didn’t drop with it. Frequency dropped and ERCOT didn’t shed load in time and 14GW tripped because they couldn’t keep up with demand. Those are still coming back online. We also lost 1.3GW of power at south Texas nuclear because of winter related issues (frozen sensor line to the boiler feedwater pump). We’ve been limping along at about 45GW of power. Lots of plants couldn’t run at max because of the cold, and shortage in gas. Low power exacerbated gas shortage because you need power to produce gas. This in turn made it more difficult to run the gas powered generation. It’s a multi layer problem. I think the truth is that this is just the most widespread cold event we have had maybe in 100 years, and we just aren’t equipped to handle it. The more I think about it the more I think a load event was inevitable. Monday was a LOT colder than Sunday. I don’t think we had enough capacity at all regardless. I wonder what the narrative would be if ercot had preemptively shed load and we limped through this in an orderly fashion. One thing going completely unsaid in the partisan back and forth I'm seeing in the news is the lack of mention of powerlines being down. Seems that there's a lot of "they have power down the street, but I've been out for days" reports going on, which is typical for ice-related powerline issues. As an engineer, you'll understand that surge currents can trip breakers which can only burden remaining conductors further and result in cascading failures upstream. This happens every year in California, a highly regulated state with lots of alternative sources for power, but the main grid can only handle so much demand. I think through all this we'll see Texas vastly improve future responses via regulation freedom while California continues with yearly blackouts due to regulation slavery.
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Post by matt@IAA on Feb 18, 2021 10:10:50 GMT -6
Not true at all. NG saved the day by taking up the slack of 35% drop in production from the frozen windmills. This chart is the whole story and it is not good for anyone. Look at Feb 5 or Feb 9. Sometimes wind goes to zero or near zero. It's ok - that's what wind does. The grid didn't collapse. Sometimes, like Feb 8, wind blows a lot - enough to push some coal offline (see the dip in brown)? Again, that's ok, that's what it is designed to do. Feb 9 we had more thermal on the grid than Feb 16. That is a complete breakdown - of the system. The problem is people see documents that ERCOT puts out which are kind of marketing that say "oh 23% of our capacity is wind, aren't we great?" But wind capacity and thermal capacity are fundamentally different. One is dispatchable and the other one isn't. There is a term called capacity factor which is the ratio of the asset's use to its theoretical maximum output. So if you have a power plant that runs every hour of the year at max power, it has a capacity factor of 1. If it runs every hour at half power, or half the time at full power, its 50%. Because wind is variable you expect an average capacity factor of around 35%, but that's just an average. Sometimes it is zero, sometimes it is 50%. Wind in Texas blows more at night and in summer. We planned for roughly a 20% peak average capacity factor for wind over the winter. Maximum capacity factor for a base load (always on) gas turbine is around 92%. Actual capacity factors for combined cycle gas turbine plants are around 50% in the US, and peaking or simple cycle are 10-15%. This isn't bad, this is just what we need from them. Think about the capacity factor for your car engine - it is probably very low, you rarely run it at full power, and don't often drive it for many hours a day. That's fine. How about my little backup / tailgating generator? Capacity factor is probably 1%. That's ok. It is doing exactly what I need. The flip side to capacity, as I said, is dispatchability. That is being able to turn it on and off. If wind doesn't blow at any particular moment, it's fine. We don't expect it to, we don't plan on it, we don't count on it. If I go outside and my Honda generator won't start even once it is worse than useless. I will be cussing and kicking it and wishing hell and damnation upon it. It is supposed to be dispatchable that 1% of the time. The difference between expectation and reality is reliability. Wind is VERY reliable. We forecast wind for seasonal average and detailed forecasts out 48 and 24 hours in advance. Our forecasts are really good, and in fact wind has outperformed installed expectations for capacity factor in Texas consistently. Remember we planned for a seasonal peak average of 6.2GW. Even with the cold and turbines offline in the peak event Sunday night wind was putting 9GW onto the grid. That is reliable, it exceeded our expectation by almost 50%. That's great. Reliability and dispatchability are NOT the same thing. My Honda generator is both dispatchable and reliable. I can turn it on whenever I want, and it literally has never failed me. I love it. My lawnmower is dispatchable but not reliable. And I hate it for that reason. Wind is reliable but not dispatchable. Gas, coal, and nuclear are dispatchable and generally very, very reliable. But we lost 25% of our nuclear output. Less reliable. We lost ??% of our coal plants. Less reliable. We couldn't run due to gas or lost some 30% of our gas capacity. Less reliable. Still dispatchable! There's an on switch! But not doing what we planned...counted...relied on. It's not a failure of the wind technology that it is not dispatchable. It is not a failure of gas technology that it was not reliable - or coal, or nuclear. This is a compound problem in Texas. Gas wells froze, gas liquid separation plants froze or were shut off, pipelines had problems, there may have not been enough gas period due to incredible demand for heating and electricity production, and of course coal plants had problems offloading traincars of coal, sensing lines freeze, its just a huge mess. Up north yankees deal with this all the time and their plants are designed differently for it. ERCOT has the lowest retail electric prices in the world and our system is ingenious. It works really, really well. Part of that is due to the limited amount of backup capacity we carry. That's the definition of a wasted asset - if it doesn't run, it just costs. Well, we got bit. The real question is how much more expensive would everyone have been happy with their bills to ensure we didn't have this problem? Because it's not a question of feasibility, just of cost. We could have a grid with 150GW of power instead of 82GW and this wouldn't have been a blip. And my summertime electric bill would be $300 instead of $150, every single year, forever. LOTS of political propaganda being put out there on both sides. Meanwhile people are suffering. Its sick.
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