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Post by Guitar on Oct 27, 2021 10:17:50 GMT -6
Network audio is slower than some other interface methods right now, I believe. It's a reason I didn't switch to REDNET products. It's probably faster than some crap pro-sumer USB ones, though. Seems to be optimized more for the live music world. Where channel count and distance can get into unfathomable lengths and sizes.
Jonny Greenwood is a famous Metric Halo user. You can see them on stage with Radiohead, and his Apple laptop computers. Stable enough for a gig that large, that's impressive to me. Runs all his polyphonic keyboard parts (NI Kontakt,) and his guitar FX with MAX code that he has written for certain effects programs like the stuttering thing, and, presumably, the harmonized delays that he uses now.
Haven't kept up with his rig lately, in the Smile band, I wonder what the computer is connected to now.
Makes me want to be a smarty pants and try to write effects that are integral to the song and not found in stomp boxes. Not very punk rock, but very very cool.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 27, 2021 10:18:56 GMT -6
Understood. What I had posted earlier from the MH site is they state the latency is conversion + console + dsp + monitor (not sure about the RME as I don't have any experience with it ) so it will be interesting to see what it will be as I monitor through my RND 5060 Centerpiece. I haven't had any issues with the RTL on my 3d boxes anyhow so for me this is a huge improvement. Wonder if I'll notice  Sorry 79sg! I must have missed your message when going through the thread.
I think the latency they're reporting is strictly keeping the DAW out of the picture... is that right?
There is some latency inherent to the hardware process itself. Software / DAW / driver latency will be separate (added on) to those numbers. I believe. |
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Post by enlav on Oct 27, 2021 10:33:35 GMT -6
Keep in mind that RME has the best USB drivers around but lowers latency at the expense of sound quality using minimum phase anti-aliasing filters in their non ADI-2 Pro/DAC products. This greatly affects the sound unless the process is scrambling the phase to begin with like tape plugs, reverb sends, Presswerk in DPR mode or with warm saturation on, etc. Does this also mean the ADI-2 Pro product line has lower I mean, higher latency figures compared to their other USB products as a result? |
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Post by 79sg on Oct 27, 2021 10:42:05 GMT -6
I think the latency they're reporting is strictly keeping the DAW out of the picture... is that right?
You are correct. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 27, 2021 13:45:17 GMT -6
Thanks for the quick tip. I don't blame them either. I'm guessing MH Link performance is considerably better, and for most people that have the means, they can use AES or any number of other solutions to allow for lower latency performance. I use MHLink just for the convenience and stability. However, on the MH list-serv they claim that the USB connection is faster. I'm not sure why. The USB connection is faster because MH haven't yet been able to get MHLink to bypass the Apple network interface. They may figure out a way to do that natively, but it also might require a dedicated MH PCI card or Thunderbolt box with an ethernet port on it. Basically, for them to get the RTL latency to an acceptably low level to monitor through your DAW plugins, they're going to have to do something different than they're currently doing. I wish to goodness they would've just gone with a Thunderbolt connector on the ULN-8 3D (or MkIV) to get around these limitations, but the team seems focused on other issues. It drives me slightly crazy, but I love so many other things about the boxes that I just keep on using them. I love their sound and stability. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 27, 2021 14:10:55 GMT -6
I have loved all of my several MH interfaces over the years, but just to save you some time, they do NOT offer competitive RTL values vs. RME. I hope that may change someday, but it is simply not the company’s focus at this time. Mark, they claim to have reduced the RTL with this Mk4 version. I haven't looked into it -- just received the promotional email. RTL isn't a concern for me, but I like that they have upgraded the analog and digital. I should probably read up on it first though ;-}
I'm tempted. I might go for the presale price, but I'd have to sell one of my older (non MK4) units to do it.
I read a bunch on the MkIV boxes within an hour of them being announced, and yes, they're definitely impressive. However, they're still leaving out some details, like do the MkIV boxes come with more DSP/FPGA than the current boxes? I don't mix in the MIOConsole, but if I did, I would hit the DSP ceiling incredibly fast. The boxes need more power for that use case. OK -- the new RTL is 18 samples for the LIO/ULN8 MK4 vs 116 samples for the last generation LIO/ULN8 3D. mhsecure.com/products/mkIV/ULN8mkIV.html#differencesHow does that compare to RME?
edit: I just found a post where RME claims the UFX2 has an RTL of 32 samples.
Yeah, those figures are definitely for latency figures in the MIO environment only - NOT pertaining to DAW RTL numbers. It's the drivers holding us back there. Well, that and what's currently possible as MH have chosen to not go Thunderbolt. OK -- the new RTL is 18 samples for the LIO/ULN8 MK4 vs 116 samples for the last generation LIO/ULN8 3D. mhsecure.com/products/mkIV/ULN8mkIV.html#differencesHow does that compare to RME?
edit: I just found a post where RME claims the UFX2 has an RTL of 32 samples.
That compares well to just about anything, even directly attached PCI-E interfaces so it's impressive especially for a USB interface. I've heard a lot claims about latency but in terms of stability at low sample rates I've yet to come across anything better (outside of HDX) than the old RME HDSP PCI-E cards, at 32 samples / 44.1Khz they had an RTL of 0.7ms. Of course you'd never run a mix session / overdubs at 32 samples but with the RME you could leave it at 64 / 128 samples (1.5ms / 3ms) RTL without it dropping audio or having a hissy fit on some sizeable sessions. Anyway, I used to have a ULN-8 (a long time ago) paired with a 2011 Mac Mini and then for reasons I moved over to Windows and sold it. Great conversion, better pre-amps than most outboard, all the same zero latency gubbins you get on most interfaces nowadays etc. Although, looking at some of the new reviews / their website it seems that the Mk4 is still in beta. You might want to hold off for a while? See above, though: those numbers are NOT the numbers for RTL through a DAW. ---------- It's hard - I suddenly feel like a crotchety old man on this RTL issue, but I've had trouble on the MIO Listserv for several years on this topic. I've had a few folks over there say to me, "what are you talking about?! The latency is incredible! I never hear a problem! Are you telling me you can hear 116 samples??!!" And I'm always like, "I'm not talking about monitoring through the MIO Console," and they're like, "WHAT?!?! Why wouldn't you just monitor through the MIO Console?!?! Are you an idiot or something?!?!?!" And I'm like, "no, but I'd like to be able to monitor through my DAW's plugins sometimes," and they're like, "WHY would you do THAT?!?!" and I'm like, "Uh, softsynths? Guitar amp plugins? Other special FX, like modulated delays with special panning?" and they're like, "Oh - I forgot some people use softsynths." ** [EDIT: These comments have been by other users to me, NOT by MH themselves.] I'm just tired of this being overlooked in many parts of the MH ecosystem. And yes, I've considered jumping ship several times over the years, but the upsides to the MH ecosystem are legion: the sound, the clocking, the stability, the routing, the customer service, the preamps (when not using external pres), etc., etc. ** I am probably being unfair and exaggerating here. If so, I apologize. It's been a rough week. |
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Post by Guitar on Oct 27, 2021 14:26:37 GMT -6
Mark thanks for the real world report!
Latency is the boogeyman, for any interface, it's the zero hour. That's why I'm thinking of spending a ship-tonne of money on an RME. Some people even tell you, that you can't hear under 10 milliseconds, but I believe that to be a conspiracy. I'm sure a lot of people here are sensitive to latency when they have their hands on an instrument.
That, and stability. If things are dropping out, inconsistent, your $50,000 in studio gear is all under that boot, getting stomped on. Seems like Metric Halo has this part on lock down.
I wonder how expensive it is to hire a driver coding team. I think only RME, Lynx, and maybe Antelope have some teams in their buildings. Maybe Metric Halo does also? But the unwashed masses of budget brands all farm out their driver coding to outside teams, and latency performance and stability often seem to suffer in this arrangement. Other than the Presonus Quantum which has freak performance attributes.
(I've had a lot of coffee today, and I love audio interfaces.)
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 27, 2021 14:38:04 GMT -6
Mark thanks for the real world report! Latency is the boogeyman, for any interface, it's the zero hour. That's why I'm thinking of spending a ship-tonne of money on an RME. Some people even tell you, that you can't hear under 10 milliseconds, but I believe that to be a conspiracy. I'm sure a lot of people here are sensitive to latency when they have their hands on an instrument. That, and stability. If things are dropping out, inconsistent, your $50,000 in studio gear is all under that boot, getting stomped on. Seems like Metric Halo has this part on lock down. I wonder how expensive it is to hire a driver coding team. I think only RME, Lynx, and maybe Antelope have some teams in their buildings. Maybe Metric Halo does also? But the unwashed masses of budget brands all farm out their driver coding to outside teams, and latency performance and stability often seem to suffer in this arrangement. Other than the Presonus Quantum which has freak performance attributes. (I've had a lot of coffee today, and I love audio interfaces.) MH write their own drivers internally. Part of them going with a USB included option on the 3D interfaces (and now MkIV interfaces) is that they can use a class-compliant driver for USB but also have the option to write their own lower-latency USB driver in the future, which last I heard they said they still plan to do. Class compliant opens the door for iOS and Windows, which they never could find a practical, sustainable way to support in the FireWire days. And MH prioritizes stability and compatibility above all else, which is admirable IMO. There are a significant number of MH units on tour and in theater installs, where stability and compatibility are far more important than DAW RTL numbers. I totally respect that, and I've benefitted from that mindset many times in the past. I have NEVER seen Apple beat MH to market with an OS where MH didn't have the driver fully beta tested and ready to go on Day 1. NEVER. That's damn impressive no matter how you look at it. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 27, 2021 14:38:42 GMT -6
(I've had a lot of coffee today, and I love audio interfaces.) I love both of those things about you, Dan. |
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Post by 79sg on Oct 27, 2021 15:38:46 GMT -6
I caved and ordered a ULN8 mkIV today as I've wanted to get to 3 boxes. When it arrives and test it a bit I'll attempt to remember to come back to this thread and report my findings for latency, sound, etc. Maybe I'm lazy but never look anywhere else for conversion due to being incredibly satisfied with their products and the company for many years. Possibly the best service I've ever encountered whenever needed. I'm dumbfounded at times wondering how in the world BJ gets as much done as he does.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 16:48:37 GMT -6
See above, though: those numbers are NOT the numbers for RTL through a DAW. ** I am probably being unfair and exaggerating here. If so, I apologize. It's been a rough week.Neither are the MH numbers though, that's obviously I/O although the starting rate should be good with a class compliant driver (in theory at least). The RME HDSP (the benchmark) was about 2.5 ms RTL (DAW / 32 samples) and 4ms w/ 64 samples. So I'd expect it to be just a bit slower, although who knows some interfaces go out of whack at higher sample rates. Seems a bit optimistic for any USB interface due to the inherent overhead but hey, I don't own one so I don't know. As for latency, yeah if I remember correctly trying to run multiple VST's (dependant on what they were) at low sample rates on a less than powerful Mac Mini back then didn't go too well. Although if I froze tracks it became far less of an issue, sure I guess it's not ideal for such an expensive interface but as you stated there were a lot of pro's besides that. That being said my 2019 MBP is more powerful than my old hexacore Windows box and I still have to freeze tracks if I dare to run too many instance of Kontakt with my Apollo. Of course that's not an issue if you buy some UA instrument plugs (shocker) as it'll do about 2ms round without batting an eye lid. Anyway, seems they might have fixed this issue in the latest revision. Maybe they might offer you a cross grade price? |
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Post by donr on Oct 27, 2021 20:50:30 GMT -6
I've used Metric Halo since they first came out, after MOTU and early Apogees. I never thought much about the sound other than it's great. The Mk IV ULN looks like a serious upgrade. Converter RTL went from 116 samples to 18. USB driverless interface. The feature and spec sheet are impressive.
I wonder if the new ones are at all compatible with the old ones in tandem. MH has bent over backward trying to make their products future proof, but time and tech march on. If you just want quality sound, there's no reason to ignore the old ones.
They're great people as well.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 27, 2021 21:32:02 GMT -6
Mark thanks for the real world report! Latency is the boogeyman, for any interface, it's the zero hour. That's why I'm thinking of spending a ship-tonne of money on an RME. Some people even tell you, that you can't hear under 10 milliseconds, but I believe that to be a conspiracy. I'm sure a lot of people here are sensitive to latency when they have their hands on an instrument. That, and stability. If things are dropping out, inconsistent, your $50,000 in studio gear is all under that boot, getting stomped on. Seems like Metric Halo has this part on lock down. I wonder how expensive it is to hire a driver coding team. I think only RME, Lynx, and maybe Antelope have some teams in their buildings. Maybe Metric Halo does also? But the unwashed masses of budget brands all farm out their driver coding to outside teams, and latency performance and stability often seem to suffer in this arrangement. Other than the Presonus Quantum which has freak performance attributes. (I've had a lot of coffee today, and I love audio interfaces.) MH write their own drivers internally. Part of them going with a USB included option on the 3D interfaces (and now MkIV interfaces) is that they can use a class-compliant driver for USB but also have the option to write their own lower-latency USB driver in the future, which last I heard they said they still plan to do. Class compliant opens the door for iOS and Windows, which they never could find a practical, sustainable way to support in the FireWire days. And MH prioritizes stability and compatibility above all else, which is admirable IMO. There are a significant number of MH units on tour and in theater installs, where stability and compatibility are far more important than DAW RTL numbers. I totally respect that, and I've benefitted from that mindset many times in the past. I have NEVER seen Apple beat MH to market with an OS where MH didn't have the driver fully beta tested and ready to go on Day 1. NEVER. That's damn impressive no matter how you look at it. Nailed it! |
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Post by ericn on Oct 27, 2021 21:34:43 GMT -6
I've used Metric Halo since they first came out, after MOTU and early Apogees. I never thought much about the sound other than it's great. The Mk IV ULN looks like a serious upgrade. Converter RTL went from 116 samples to 18. USB driverless interface. The feature and spec sheet are impressive. I wonder if the new ones are at all compatible with the old ones in tandem. MH has bent over backward trying to make their products future proof, but time and tech march on. If you just want quality sound, there's no reason to ignore the old ones. They're great people as well. Hey Don you know a simple email to the guys at MH will answer all your questions and more and my friend that is the magic of MH they will tell you the gods honest truth, go figure what a concept😎 |
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Post by sirthought on Oct 27, 2021 21:47:45 GMT -6
As Donr mentioned, their website claims it's a USB driverless interface
It'll work with ANY USB class compliant device. iPad, Android tablet, Windows 10+, Mac OS
That's a big step forward for them.
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Post by donr on Oct 27, 2021 22:22:48 GMT -6
I take the other Mark William's point on previous MH interface latency compared to competitors, but that's not been an issue I ever have suffered from. I've used the MH Console like a virtual mixing board, and "sync head" vs. "repro head" for overdubbing without issue and with great ease, except toggling between DAW and MH apps in MacOS to grab a setting.
I've send hardware outs and returns, but not in a time sensitive way, only ambiences and 2-mixes so far, and if the offset was consistent, I could deal with it.
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Post by 79sg on Oct 28, 2021 2:55:02 GMT -6
I've used Metric Halo since they first came out, after MOTU and early Apogees. I never thought much about the sound other than it's great. The Mk IV ULN looks like a serious upgrade. Converter RTL went from 116 samples to 18. USB driverless interface. The feature and spec sheet are impressive. I wonder if the new ones are at all compatible with the old ones in tandem. MH has bent over backward trying to make their products future proof, but time and tech march on. If you just want quality sound, there's no reason to ignore the old ones. They're great people as well. I asked Jon at MH the question about compatibility when the announcement for mkIV was made and he said the mkIV units are 100% 3d compatible. While the mkIV units have a different converter latency than the original ULN-8/LIO-8, so did the 2882 and ULN-2 as well as any external third-party converters connected digitally, and those kinds of systems are used together all the time. |
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Post by keymod on Oct 28, 2021 5:32:54 GMT -6
I caved and ordered a ULN8 mkIV today as I've wanted to get to 3 boxes. When it arrives and test it a bit I'll attempt to remember to come back to this thread and report my findings for latency, sound, etc. Maybe I'm lazy but never look anywhere else for conversion due to being incredibly satisfied with their products and the company for many years. Possibly the best service I've ever encountered whenever needed. I'm dumbfounded at times wondering how in the world BJ gets as much done as he does. Please report that it sucks. Otherwise, this will cost me a lot of money..... |
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Post by 79sg on Oct 28, 2021 6:13:30 GMT -6
Haha, no promises. The 2d to 3d upgrade was a very noticeable improvement to my ears so this one should be interesting. We'll see.
My guess is it will cost you a lot of money.....................
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Post by plinker on Oct 28, 2021 7:07:02 GMT -6
I've used Metric Halo since they first came out, after MOTU and early Apogees. I never thought much about the sound other than it's great. The Mk IV ULN looks like a serious upgrade. Converter RTL went from 116 samples to 18. USB driverless interface. The feature and spec sheet are impressive. I wonder if the new ones are at all compatible with the old ones in tandem. MH has bent over backward trying to make their products future proof, but time and tech march on. If you just want quality sound, there's no reason to ignore the old ones. They're great people as well. I asked Jon at MH the question about compatibility when the announcement for mkIV was made and he said the mkIV units are 100% 3d compatible. While the mkIV units have a different converter latency than the original ULN-8/LIO-8, so did the 2882 and ULN-2 as well as any external third-party converters connected digitally, and those kinds of systems are used together all the time. The only downside is that the latency of the combined units will be the same as the slower unit — if that matters to you. |
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Post by 79sg on Oct 28, 2021 7:37:23 GMT -6
True. Planned on getting back to Jon about that. The latency on my 3d boxes hasn't bothered me. It may bother others. I also view this as temporary because I'll upgrade the other 2 ULN8's when the kits become available. Sure I could wait until those are available (no idea when that might be) and do it all at the same time but I've noticed as I get older waiting sometimes doesn't feel like a good idea |
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Post by plinker on Oct 28, 2021 7:50:02 GMT -6
79sg, if I understand correctly, the upgrades for the older units will be for the analog sections only. I'm not sure if that will reduce the latency or not.
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Post by 79sg on Oct 28, 2021 7:55:49 GMT -6
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Post by plinker on Oct 28, 2021 8:30:03 GMT -6
Right -- I think we're agreeing that upgrading the analog section should NOT affect converter latency. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2021 8:35:38 GMT -6
As Donr mentioned, their website claims it's a USB driverless interface It'll work with ANY USB class compliant device. iPad, Android tablet, Windows 10+, Mac OS That's a big step forward for them. Sorry to be pedantic here but there's no such thing as a USB "driverless" interface. It essentially uses the generic driver built into the OS, also I already mentioned it was class compliant. Just saying, not trying to be snarky or anything .. www.sweetwater.com/insync/class-compliant/ |
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