Metric Halo mkiv release

Thank you for this. Those numbers are better than expected. What method and software did you use to calculate this? What filter and mhlink safety buffer settings? Does this include the latency for routing through mioconsole and mh monitor controller? Thanks!

As for the posted numbers we are only interested in the actual real world usable RTL when monitoring through a DAW *including* the MHLink safety buffers as it is much higher than these numbers...

A lot of pro users enjoy the best low latency performing drivers in existance using RME interfaces over USB so this is simply untrue. In fact the latency on RME over USB is MUCH lower with far less CPU usage than Metric Halo over any protocol currently...

Apologies for my absence from much of the thread over the past week or so. As many of you know, I'm also a longtime MH user. I think my first MH interface was back in 2004, and I've been using them as my primary interfaces ever since. So it's safe to say I'm a fan of the company. I've quite possibly received better customer service from MH than any other company who I've ever owned anything from - not just audio, I mean in LIFE. So that does breed a lot of goodwill.

Having said that, I tend to agree with the critiques of the last few pages. It has long bugged me that the RTL numbers are not lower, and I was similarly frustrated when 3D came out and it used ethernet connections instead of Thunderbolt. I wish to goodness MH had gone with Thunderbolt, but they didn't. As I think became evident from duplemeter 's posts (welcome, Steve! Great to see you over here - your posts on the MH Listserv have been very helpful to me over the years), MH had different priorities. Their boxes are used a lot in live touring rigs and installs where the ability to run ethernet cable for hundreds of feet is a huge boon, and I think the company really wanted to continue meeting the needs of that market and its established customer base there. But I continue to find it frustrating that RTL figures haven't been the priority, because that matters more TO ME in MY use cases.

To be clear, as long as you are OK with using a separate application for your cue mix(es): live inputs vs. already-recorded material, I'm not sure there's a better all-in-one box on the market than the ULN-8/LIO-8. For real. The MIO Console app is fantastic, and very logically set up if you're used to a console-style workflow. The latency there is negligible/unnoticeable, just like when using an Apollo's included DSP mixer or any other company's DSP mixer layer. MH continue to invest in and develop recording functions in MIO Console, as well. It's nearly a DAW itself at this point. I've used those recording functions for live location work for years now, and it's rock solid.

HOWEVER, even after many years of doing so, I am still of the opinion that using a separate application from my DAW for cue mixes is a pain in the ass. I have my setup about as streamlined as it's possible to be, including using a dedicated control surface (X-Touch in my case) that only communicates with the MIO Console, so I have physical faders right in front of me to control listening levels of my inputs vs. my 2-bus. It's pretty slick and totally solid, and yet I would still prefer to not have to use a separate app to my DAW.

plinker
Jim, you asked a couple pages ago about why round trip latency numbers matter so much to some of us when the +DSP mixer already exists and is so incredibly low latency. Others have answered already, so maybe my response will be redundant, but I'd like to take a crack at my own explanation. I think once you've worked with a system like Pro Tools HD (or, I gather, Luna on an Apollo), the incredible simplicity of monitoring live inputs through the same exact mixer all your recorded tracks are in is really hard to give up. Everything else feels like a compromise at best. EVERYTHING else. Even after recording for 25+ years now and being totally confident in my abilities, anything that comes between me and the music is a hindrance, and having a second app that acts as my "mixer" when tracking means there's some part of my brain paying attention to THAT instead of the song, the performance, the vibe. And the only way to achieve that outside of Pro Tools or Luna with an Apollo (or what, PARIS??) is by having low enough latency that one can simply use one's DAW as the mixer for both live inputs and already-recorded tracks. Well, you could of course use a LFAC and enough channels of conversion to pull everything up on the board - I've certainly considered that route over the years, too. I don't know if all that makes sense or not.

Over here at my place, I can't run consistently with the safety offset at 0.6ms. I can't even always run with it at the default of 1.0ms. Hell, when I'm editing and grading video, I can't even always run it at 60ms. I have it parked at 100ms(!) when doing video work. I'm on a Mac Mini M1 over here, same as you, it sounds like. (Now, in video work it obviously doesn't matter what the safety offset is - there are no live audio inputs.)

I'll say this: MHLink is not slower or worse than the class-compliant USB driver in my personal usage. With MHLink and the mkIV converters, I've definitely been able to achieve the lowest latency through my DAW that I've ever gotten with a Metric Halo product in nearly 20 years now. I do find it more usable when composing with things like sampled pianos and other VIs as compared to life before MHLink, and certainly when compared to life before the current mkIV converters. Some of my heavier Spitfire libraries in particular were very challenging to play--if not nearly impossible--with the USB driver in the mkIII box. And the most recent firmware, MIO Console, and driver update (from like two weeks ago) have made things even more stable on my system.

Having said ALL of this, if someone is considering entering the MH ecosystem, but has "lowest possible latency" and "most-efficient-drivers-on-the-market" as primary requirements, you would need to be prepared to go with either the RME HDSPe AES PCI-e card or the Lynx AES card and interface with either of those via AES from the ULN/LIO-8. That is still the lowest latency way of getting sounds into and out of your computer with MH interfaces. If Apple had not made it so damn expensive to buy a computer with PCI slots, I would've gone that route ages ago, and may still do so with a Sonnet expansion box.

It's a difficult decision when committing oneself to an audio interface for the long term. As I said earlier, Metric Halo has phenomenal customer service. They have never once been caught flat-footed with driver problems at the release of a new Mac OS. And they kept me up and running even when I lived on a near-desert island from 2009-2011 with unpredictable electricity. They're good folks. Yes, I wish the boxes were Thunderbolt and had lower RTL and world-beating lowest-CPU-overhead drivers. But you can't have everything in life.

So Quint, I'm not sure what else to say, but I'm happy to answer any outstanding questions you might have. I know it's a big deal to reconfigure one's studio and commit to new interfaces that hopefully take you for at least a decade. Not the most fun spot to be in.

Plinker, you asked a couple pages ago about why round trip latency numbers matter so much to some of us when the +DSP mixer already exists and is so incredibly low latency. Others have answered already, so maybe my response will be redundant, but I'd like to take a crack at my own explanation. I think once you've worked with a system like Pro Tools HD (or, I gather, Luna on an Apollo), the incredible simplicity of monitoring live inputs through the same exact mixer all your recorded tracks are in is really hard to give up. Everything else feels like a compromise at best. EVERYTHING else. Even after recording for 25+ years now and being totally confident in my abilities, anything that comes between me and the music is a hindrance, and having a second app that acts as my "mixer" when tracking means there's some part of my brain paying attention to THAT instead of the song, the performance, the vibe. And the only way to achieve that outside of Pro Tools or Luna with an Apollo (or what, PARIS??) is by having low enough latency that one can simply use one's DAW as the mixer for both live inputs and already-recorded tracks. Well, you could of course use a LFAC and enough channels of conversion to pull everything up on the board - I've certainly considered that route over the years, too. I don't know if all that makes sense or not.

Those numbers, for 32 @96 are inline with what I posted previously -- as reported by Logic.  My RTL was slightly lower, but I had the safety buffers set to 0.6.

Apologies for my absence from much of the thread over the past week or so. As many of you know, I'm also a longtime MH user. I think my first MH interface was back in 2004, and I've been using them as my primary interfaces ever since. So it's safe to say I'm a fan of the company. I've quite possibly received better customer service from MH than any other company who I've ever owned anything from - not just audio, I mean in LIFE. So that does breed a lot of goodwill.

Having said that, I tend to agree with the critiques of the last few pages. It has long bugged me that the RTL numbers are not lower, and I was similarly frustrated when 3D came out and it used ethernet connections instead of Thunderbolt. I wish to goodness MH had gone with Thunderbolt, but they didn't. As I think became evident from duplemeter 's posts (welcome, Steve! Great to see you over here - your posts on the MH Listserv have been very helpful to me over the years), MH had different priorities. Their boxes are used a lot in live touring rigs and installs where the ability to run ethernet cable for hundreds of feet is a huge boon, and I think the company really wanted to continue meeting the needs of that market and its established customer base there. But I continue to find it frustrating that RTL figures haven't been the priority, because that matters more TO ME in MY use cases.

To be clear, as long as you are OK with using a separate application for your cue mix(es): live inputs vs. already-recorded material, I'm not sure there's a better all-in-one box on the market than the ULN-8/LIO-8. For real. The MIO Console app is fantastic, and very logically set up if you're used to a console-style workflow. The latency there is negligible/unnoticeable, just like when using an Apollo's included DSP mixer or any other company's DSP mixer layer. MH continue to invest in and develop recording functions in MIO Console, as well. It's nearly a DAW itself at this point. I've used those recording functions for live location work for years now, and it's rock solid.

HOWEVER, even after many years of doing so, I am still of the opinion that using a separate application from my DAW for cue mixes is a pain in the ass. I have my setup about as streamlined as it's possible to be, including using a dedicated control surface (X-Touch in my case) that only communicates with the MIO Console, so I have physical faders right in front of me to control listening levels of my inputs vs. my 2-bus. It's pretty slick and totally solid, and yet I would still prefer to not have to use a separate app to my DAW.

plinker
Jim, you asked a couple pages ago about why round trip latency numbers matter so much to some of us when the +DSP mixer already exists and is so incredibly low latency. Others have answered already, so maybe my response will be redundant, but I'd like to take a crack at my own explanation. I think once you've worked with a system like Pro Tools HD (or, I gather, Luna on an Apollo), the incredible simplicity of monitoring live inputs through the same exact mixer all your recorded tracks are in is really hard to give up. Everything else feels like a compromise at best. EVERYTHING else. Even after recording for 25+ years now and being totally confident in my abilities, anything that comes between me and the music is a hindrance, and having a second app that acts as my "mixer" when tracking means there's some part of my brain paying attention to THAT instead of the song, the performance, the vibe. And the only way to achieve that outside of Pro Tools or Luna with an Apollo (or what, PARIS??) is by having low enough latency that one can simply use one's DAW as the mixer for both live inputs and already-recorded tracks. Well, you could of course use a LFAC and enough channels of conversion to pull everything up on the board - I've certainly considered that route over the years, too. I don't know if all that makes sense or not.

Over here at my place, I can't run consistently with the safety offset at 0.6ms. I can't even always run with it at the default of 1.0ms. Hell, when I'm editing and grading video, I can't even always run it at 60ms. I have it parked at 100ms(!) when doing video work. I'm on a Mac Mini M1 over here, same as you, it sounds like. (Now, in video work it obviously doesn't matter what the safety offset is - there are no live audio inputs.)

I'll say this: MHLink is not slower or worse than the class-compliant USB driver in my personal usage. With MHLink and the mkIV converters, I've definitely been able to achieve the lowest latency through my DAW that I've ever gotten with a Metric Halo product in nearly 20 years now. I do find it more usable when composing with things like sampled pianos and other VIs as compared to life before MHLink, and certainly when compared to life before the current mkIV converters. Some of my heavier Spitfire libraries in particular were very challenging to play--if not nearly impossible--with the USB driver in the mkIII box. And the most recent firmware, MIO Console, and driver update (from like two weeks ago) have made things even more stable on my system.

Having said ALL of this, if someone is considering entering the MH ecosystem, but has "lowest possible latency" and "most-efficient-drivers-on-the-market" as primary requirements, you would need to be prepared to go with either the RME HDSPe AES PCI-e card or the Lynx AES card and interface with either of those via AES from the ULN/LIO-8. That is still the lowest latency way of getting sounds into and out of your computer with MH interfaces. If Apple had not made it so damn expensive to buy a computer with PCI slots, I would've gone that route ages ago, and may still do so with a Sonnet expansion box.

It's a difficult decision when committing oneself to an audio interface for the long term. As I said earlier, Metric Halo has phenomenal customer service. They have never once been caught flat-footed with driver problems at the release of a new Mac OS. And they kept me up and running even when I lived on a near-desert island from 2009-2011 with unpredictable electricity. They're good folks. Yes, I wish the boxes were Thunderbolt and had lower RTL and world-beating lowest-CPU-overhead drivers. But you can't have everything in life.

So Quint , I'm not sure what else to say, but I'm happy to answer any outstanding questions you might have. I know it's a big deal to reconfigure one's studio and commit to new interfaces that hopefully take you for at least a decade. Not the most fun spot to be in.

RME usb is only sample accurate. Other interfaces are +/- 1 sample.

PCI-E and most thunderbolt interfaces are subsample accurate. This includes digilink.

I’ve never tested Dante. MOTU AVB is a mess. Keep all of your mics on one source on the same interface.

Zmix made a big hoopla about this years ago, people tried to shoot him down and discredit him, but he was correct that his cheap motu pci-e interface had deterministic latency where no usb interface did.

Massive sale right now on MH. Taking $1k plus off.