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Post by Dan on Jun 10, 2024 14:14:53 GMT -6
rme does not care to minimize distortion in most of their products They choose to emphasize latency, features, and come in at a competitive price point and do offer products that are cleaner but much more expensive like the adi-2 pro and micstasy but those are hard sells to bargain hunters. Apogee symphony desktop ate into the adi-2 pro’s market which ate into the lynx Hilo’s market OK, I consider Dan a friend and I respect Dan’s Uhber Geekdom ( highest compliment) few have dug into the weeds as much as Dan has when it comes to digital but, and my RADAR will probably crash for me saying this but honestly today even the cheapest Behringer interface isn’t going to keep you from making music. The key here is this “ Best” is open ended, is it Sonics ? Support? Stability? RME is far from perfect but they are found all around the world in some pretty well respected prestigious situations ( yeah the guy you see on the RME site talking about RME & Blueman Group is an old high school friend so slight conflict but honestly you will find a friend or former client on just about every respected interface vendors sight so minimal conflict). I do still love their PCIE cards, but RME and Lynx are about all that’s left, about the only one who has better drivers is Metric Halo, but that’s Mac only.. I do hate total Mix, I really, really wish at the very least they would print a comprehensive manual that covers it but I went from PT TDM to RME / logic and hated having to use 2 applications. My advice, don’t buy thinking about what you need today, think long term growth. The 2 reasons you see so many small interfaces used are 1. People realize they are not going to be the next Billy Elish. 2. They realize they need more I/O. I know Dan is all about the Sonics and yes they are important, but as someone who had the problematic Audient ( hey I love my DDA console) drivers and stability are as if not more more important. About 6 years ago I saved an Otari Status console $15k when new new with recall VCA automation and onboard dynamics from the dumpster, it sits in storage because a Behringer interface blew it away. yet for all this thread, gearslutz chatter, and rme forum, having artifacts / severe reflections on the vocal like Billie Eilish recording will just get you fired from a lot of gigs. Or they will have a revision on you. Or they just won’t pay you on the back end and send it to someone else or go with the rough because this is the real world. The pumping and breathing in the voices from poorly set or chosen compressors will get you a revision or fired. The artifacts from the cheap condensers being audible in the final mix could get you fired. The audible reflections could get you fired. Not everyone can be a nepo baby, beat maker who strikes it gold sampling a more talented artist, or a no nothing “producer” moving faders because he can play guitar and hung out with someone 20 years ago. This stuff is horrible. It’s truly horrible. And for all we can hate on Finneas, Billie Eilish, the last 20 yes’s of rap, horrible metal, and lil xan’s flaming hot Cheeto ulcer, a lot of that self produced but schizophrenic quality stuff still sounds like it was once a human voice which is somewhat striking when you compare it to pop music where half the vocals could be ai synthesized and tuned, effected, and stuck in front of a plastic surgery recut modern day milli vanilli or hologram. Even so it is nothing to be praised. It is a triumph of ugly egalitarianism, consumerism, and ultimately, conformity to subgenres that tolerate it for just being conformist. The labels are right they can sell anything. The music industry starting with the rise of pretty much talentless nepo baby indie artists back when it still had money became like the art industry. It’s often an industry for rich people who don’t have to work to masturbate to the lack of talent of other rich people because then don’t believe in technical skill anymore, unlike even early modern art. All they have to do is conform ultimately. The art industry now believes in egotistical self reflection, money laundering, plagiarism is all but the very legal definition, making up new definitions of what a sale is, when you made the art, lying if you made the art, etc. and sales are often are just a lie as any of number of complex securities and the so called financial products that dominate the economy of many areas because we no longer make anything and it must be made as cheap as possible to pocket the rest and pay off politicians. High Price by Isabelle Graw is a good book on the art market and this now seems to be true in the music industry even at the smaller independent label level where they only sign people who conform, do it as cheap as possible, make up shit beyond the music or recording as it is itself to sell it became they sure cannot sell it as absolute art anymore unlike all the older songs where the lyrics and aesthetics were often after thoughts and the people playing it weren’t lookers and not even been able to fit into a subcultural group. Now take the art industry and have it all priced at a cartel rate because some artists are not more talented than others says the US congress. The chimp’s finger painting is worth just as much money as the sculptor or the stunt artist getting people to pay to take selfies with the banana on the wall and seeing if they’ll eat it or not. Say we have an artist. Let’s call him Duffman. He makes beer. Moe sells his beer at Moe’s Tavern but doesn’t even pay Duffman in advance what it costs to make anymore. The customers, Barney, Carl, Homer, and Larry used to pay Moe and Moe paid Duffman per keg minus the amount Moe loaned him to brew the beer. Now they pay Moe’s landlord, real estate company partially owned by Fat Tony, and Fat Tony only pays out at Mayor Quimby’s cartel rate per keg that’s less than what it costs to produce because Fat Tony has “lobbied” Mayor Quimby and Fat Tony only pays out based on whatever his accountants can determine is his “net revenue.” Now away from this are hidden minimums paid to Krusty Burger for Fat Tony’s Restaurant Group’s right to collect payments and deliver product for Krusty, who’s also invested with Fat Tony in his real estate company. Krusty is the business using Fat Tony like a tax farmer because then he has an excuse to cut his pay roll and he owns part of it too because his old franchisees and suppliers who never signed up for this scheme. On top of this Fat Tony is throwing Luigi’s wine right in the face of Homer and co and he’s employing Snake and Cletus to make bathtub gin and moonshine that Fat Tony can’t sell but it eats away at his net revenue that he has to pay a portion back of. Moe might not even have to pay Duffman anything if Fat Tony’s lawyers can get him out of it. Instead he just gives Duffman warm kegs of beer back to sell for him to pay rent as he drives a van around promoting the beer he made that Moe sells. And this is all legal because Mayor Quimby is involved and is allowed to buy shares of both Fat Tony’s real estate company and Krusty Burger. Duffman cannot even afford to eat at Krusty Burger. This is the music industry in America. |
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 10, 2024 14:22:35 GMT -6
OK, I consider Dan a friend and I respect Dan’s Uhber Geekdom ( highest compliment) few have dug into the weeds as much as Dan has when it comes to digital but, and my RADAR will probably crash for me saying this but honestly today even the cheapest Behringer interface isn’t going to keep you from making music. The key here is this “ Best” is open ended, is it Sonics ? Support? Stability? RME is far from perfect but they are found all around the world in some pretty well respected prestigious situations ( yeah the guy you see on the RME site talking about RME & Blueman Group is an old high school friend so slight conflict but honestly you will find a friend or former client on just about every respected interface vendors sight so minimal conflict). I do still love their PCIE cards, but RME and Lynx are about all that’s left, about the only one who has better drivers is Metric Halo, but that’s Mac only.. I do hate total Mix, I really, really wish at the very least they would print a comprehensive manual that covers it but I went from PT TDM to RME / logic and hated having to use 2 applications. My advice, don’t buy thinking about what you need today, think long term growth. The 2 reasons you see so many small interfaces used are 1. People realize they are not going to be the next Billy Elish. 2. They realize they need more I/O. I know Dan is all about the Sonics and yes they are important, but as someone who had the problematic Audient ( hey I love my DDA console) drivers and stability are as if not more more important. About 6 years ago I saved an Otari Status console $15k when new new with recall VCA automation and onboard dynamics from the dumpster, it sits in storage because a Behringer interface blew it away. yet for all this thread, gearslutz chatter, and rme forum, having artifacts / severe reflections on the vocal like Billie Eilish recording will just get you fired from a lot of gigs. Or they will have a revision on you. Or they just won’t pay you on the back end and send it to someone else or go with the rough because this is the real world. The pumping and breathing in the voices from poorly set or chosen compressors will get you a revision or fired. The artifacts from the cheap condensers being audible in the final mix could get you fired. The audible reflections could get you fired. Not everyone can be a nepo baby, beat maker who strikes it gold sampling a more talented artist, or a no nothing “producer” moving faders because he can play guitar and hung out with someone 20 years ago. This stuff is horrible. It’s truly horrible. And for all we can hate on Finneas, Billie Eilish, the last 20 yes’s of rap, horrible metal, and lil xan’s flaming hot Cheeto ulcer, a lot of that self produced but schizophrenic quality stuff still sounds like it was once a human voice which is somewhat striking when you compare it to pop music where half the vocals could be ai synthesized and tuned, effected, and stuck in front of a plastic surgery recut modern day milli vanilli or hologram. Even so it is nothing to be praised. It is a triumph of ugly egalitarianism, consumerism, and ultimately, conformity to subgenres that tolerate it for just being conformist. The labels are right they can sell anything. The music industry starting with the rise of pretty much talentless nepo baby indie artists back when it still had money became like the art industry. It’s often an industry for rich people who don’t have to work to masturbate to the lack of talent of other rich people because then don’t believe in technical skill anymore, unlike even early modern art. All they have to do is conform ultimately. The art industry now believes in egotistical self reflection, money laundering, plagiarism is all but the very legal definition, making up new definitions of what a sale is, when you made the art, lying if you made the art, etc. and sales are often are just a lie as any of number of complex securities and the so called financial products that dominate the economy of many areas because we no longer make anything and it must be made as cheap as possible to pocket the rest and pay off politicians. High Price by Isabelle Graw is a good book on the art market and this now seems to be true in the music industry even at the smaller independent label level where they only sign people who conform, do it as cheap as possible, make up shit beyond the music or recording as it is itself to sell it became they sure cannot sell it as absolute art anymore unlike all the older songs where the lyrics and aesthetics were often after thoughts and the people playing it weren’t lookers and not even been able to fit into a subcultural group. Now take the art industry and have it all priced at a cartel rate because some artists are not more talented than others says the US congress. The chimp’s finger painting is worth just as much money as the sculptor or the stunt artist getting people to pay to take selfies with the banana on the wall and seeing if they’ll eat it or not. Say we have an artist. Let’s call him Duffman. He makes beer. Moe sells his beer at Moe’s Tavern but doesn’t even pay Duffman in advance what it costs to make anymore. The customers, Barney, Carl, Homer, and Larry used to pay Moe and Moe paid Duffman per keg minus the amount Moe loaned him to brew the beer. Now they pay Moe’s landlord, real estate company partially owned by Fat Tony, and Fat Tony only pays out at Mayor Quimby’s cartel rate per keg that’s less than what it costs to produce because Fat Tony has “lobbied” Mayor Quimby and Fat Tony only pays out based on whatever his accountants can determine is his “net revenue.” Now away from this are hidden minimums paid to Krusty Burger for Fat Tony’s Restaurant Group’s right to collect payments and deliver product for Krusty, who’s also invested with Fat Tony in his real estate company. Krusty is the business using Fat Tony like a tax farmer because then he has an excuse to cut his pay roll and he owns part of it too because his old franchisees and suppliers who never signed up for this scheme. On top of this Fat Tony is throwing Luigi’s wine right in the face of Homer and co and he’s employing Snake and Cletus to make bathtub gin and moonshine that Fat Tony can’t sell but it eats away at his net revenue that he has to pay a portion back of. Moe might not even have to pay Duffman anything if Fat Tony’s lawyers can get him out of it. Instead he just gives Duffman warm kegs of beer back to sell for him to pay rent as he drives a van around promoting the beer he made that Moe sells. And this is all legal because Mayor Quimby is involved and is allowed to buy shares of both Fat Tony’s real estate company and Krusty Burger. Duffman cannot even afford to eat at Krusty Burger. This is the music industry in America. Thank you for such a succinct and direct recommendation on an affordable interface used for some simple at home tracking!  |
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Post by Dan on Jun 10, 2024 14:32:17 GMT -6
It is important to get over spec sheet data and get into practical experience with the gear in question. As Eric said, none of this will be the hindering factor in our production. RME is not a conglomerate. It is a small company, and very experienced pro audio interface designers. You can talk with the owners. They appreciate and support long term customers. If you want to know why the company has consistently designed ultra clean and stable interfaces with the distortion specifications they chose, just ask them. It's been asked and answered before but Mathias isn't hiding behind a company name. Maybe you can invite him to this conversation? Using the phrase 'prosumer', or comparing a company to Behringer to lump them into the lowest common denominator has very limited credibility and certainly limited value to the conversation. They’re not ultra clean. They’re built to a price point and seem to be for low latency for monitor mixes, playing amp sims, and vsti synths. The price point is a huge factor especially when the cost can not be written off by the customer who doesnt have a registered business and the customer demands a ton of features crammed into one rack or half rack unit, sound better than mass market prosumer equipment sold at guitar center, and reliable drivers all for half the price of the start of the almost cost no object pro solutions even though you’ll need to pay the same eventually to get the same features, say a UFX III + Ferrofish A32pro Madi converter costing about the same as a tricked out Lynx Aurora (N) and been a more cobbled together setup and not being able to be used with pro tools hdx interfaces. RME and others use many of the same parts as Behringer and the other fragile disposable interface manufacturers do: they’re cheap and they have to hit a price point. Obviously Behrigner and Presonus cut a lot more corners than RME and have less features like no digital mixers on the interface, only in the in the unstable drivers, blend knobs, muddy sound, cross talk, etc. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 10, 2024 14:37:38 GMT -6
yet for all this thread, gearslutz chatter, and rme forum, having artifacts / severe reflections on the vocal like Billie Eilish recording will just get you fired from a lot of gigs. Or they will have a revision on you. Or they just won’t pay you on the back end and send it to someone else or go with the rough because this is the real world. The pumping and breathing in the voices from poorly set or chosen compressors will get you a revision or fired. The artifacts from the cheap condensers being audible in the final mix could get you fired. The audible reflections could get you fired. Not everyone can be a nepo baby, beat maker who strikes it gold sampling a more talented artist, or a no nothing “producer” moving faders because he can play guitar and hung out with someone 20 years ago. This stuff is horrible. It’s truly horrible. And for all we can hate on Finneas, Billie Eilish, the last 20 yes’s of rap, horrible metal, and lil xan’s flaming hot Cheeto ulcer, a lot of that self produced but schizophrenic quality stuff still sounds like it was once a human voice which is somewhat striking when you compare it to pop music where half the vocals could be ai synthesized and tuned, effected, and stuck in front of a plastic surgery recut modern day milli vanilli or hologram. Even so it is nothing to be praised. It is a triumph of ugly egalitarianism, consumerism, and ultimately, conformity to subgenres that tolerate it for just being conformist. The labels are right they can sell anything. The music industry starting with the rise of pretty much talentless nepo baby indie artists back when it still had money became like the art industry. It’s often an industry for rich people who don’t have to work to masturbate to the lack of talent of other rich people because then don’t believe in technical skill anymore, unlike even early modern art. All they have to do is conform ultimately. The art industry now believes in egotistical self reflection, money laundering, plagiarism is all but the very legal definition, making up new definitions of what a sale is, when you made the art, lying if you made the art, etc. and sales are often are just a lie as any of number of complex securities and the so called financial products that dominate the economy of many areas because we no longer make anything and it must be made as cheap as possible to pocket the rest and pay off politicians. High Price by Isabelle Graw is a good book on the art market and this now seems to be true in the music industry even at the smaller independent label level where they only sign people who conform, do it as cheap as possible, make up shit beyond the music or recording as it is itself to sell it became they sure cannot sell it as absolute art anymore unlike all the older songs where the lyrics and aesthetics were often after thoughts and the people playing it weren’t lookers and not even been able to fit into a subcultural group. Now take the art industry and have it all priced at a cartel rate because some artists are not more talented than others says the US congress. The chimp’s finger painting is worth just as much money as the sculptor or the stunt artist getting people to pay to take selfies with the banana on the wall and seeing if they’ll eat it or not. Say we have an artist. Let’s call him Duffman. He makes beer. Moe sells his beer at Moe’s Tavern but doesn’t even pay Duffman in advance what it costs to make anymore. The customers, Barney, Carl, Homer, and Larry used to pay Moe and Moe paid Duffman per keg minus the amount Moe loaned him to brew the beer. Now they pay Moe’s landlord, real estate company partially owned by Fat Tony, and Fat Tony only pays out at Mayor Quimby’s cartel rate per keg that’s less than what it costs to produce because Fat Tony has “lobbied” Mayor Quimby and Fat Tony only pays out based on whatever his accountants can determine is his “net revenue.” Now away from this are hidden minimums paid to Krusty Burger for Fat Tony’s Restaurant Group’s right to collect payments and deliver product for Krusty, who’s also invested with Fat Tony in his real estate company. Krusty is the business using Fat Tony like a tax farmer because then he has an excuse to cut his pay roll and he owns part of it too because his old franchisees and suppliers who never signed up for this scheme. On top of this Fat Tony is throwing Luigi’s wine right in the face of Homer and co and he’s employing Snake and Cletus to make bathtub gin and moonshine that Fat Tony can’t sell but it eats away at his net revenue that he has to pay a portion back of. Moe might not even have to pay Duffman anything if Fat Tony’s lawyers can get him out of it. Instead he just gives Duffman warm kegs of beer back to sell for him to pay rent as he drives a van around promoting the beer he made that Moe sells. And this is all legal because Mayor Quimby is involved and is allowed to buy shares of both Fat Tony’s real estate company and Krusty Burger. Duffman cannot even afford to eat at Krusty Burger. This is the music industry in America. Thank you for such a succinct and direct recommendation on an affordable interface used for some simple at home tracking! I mean there are many two channel apogee elements floating around for well under 400 bucks if you have a Mac with thunderbolt connection. Hard to beat that for a low latency, clean interface with no awful cheap pots that can break. 8 channel one for under 800 dollars. Just don’t fry the thunderbolt chipset. Edit if you need usb, there are used baby face pros for around 600-800 bucks. Not the current FS ESS version. Just don’t fry the discontinued AKM converters. |
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Post by geoff738 on Jun 10, 2024 15:53:07 GMT -6
yet for all this thread, gearslutz chatter, and rme forum, having artifacts / severe reflections on the vocal like Billie Eilish recording will just get you fired from a lot of gigs. Or they will have a revision on you. Or they just won’t pay you on the back end and send it to someone else or go with the rough because this is the real world. The pumping and breathing in the voices from poorly set or chosen compressors will get you a revision or fired. The artifacts from the cheap condensers being audible in the final mix could get you fired. The audible reflections could get you fired. Not everyone can be a nepo baby, beat maker who strikes it gold sampling a more talented artist, or a no nothing “producer” moving faders because he can play guitar and hung out with someone 20 years ago. This stuff is horrible. It’s truly horrible. And for all we can hate on Finneas, Billie Eilish, the last 20 yes’s of rap, horrible metal, and lil xan’s flaming hot Cheeto ulcer, a lot of that self produced but schizophrenic quality stuff still sounds like it was once a human voice which is somewhat striking when you compare it to pop music where half the vocals could be ai synthesized and tuned, effected, and stuck in front of a plastic surgery recut modern day milli vanilli or hologram. Even so it is nothing to be praised. It is a triumph of ugly egalitarianism, consumerism, and ultimately, conformity to subgenres that tolerate it for just being conformist. The labels are right they can sell anything. The music industry starting with the rise of pretty much talentless nepo baby indie artists back when it still had money became like the art industry. It’s often an industry for rich people who don’t have to work to masturbate to the lack of talent of other rich people because then don’t believe in technical skill anymore, unlike even early modern art. All they have to do is conform ultimately. The art industry now believes in egotistical self reflection, money laundering, plagiarism is all but the very legal definition, making up new definitions of what a sale is, when you made the art, lying if you made the art, etc. and sales are often are just a lie as any of number of complex securities and the so called financial products that dominate the economy of many areas because we no longer make anything and it must be made as cheap as possible to pocket the rest and pay off politicians. High Price by Isabelle Graw is a good book on the art market and this now seems to be true in the music industry even at the smaller independent label level where they only sign people who conform, do it as cheap as possible, make up shit beyond the music or recording as it is itself to sell it became they sure cannot sell it as absolute art anymore unlike all the older songs where the lyrics and aesthetics were often after thoughts and the people playing it weren’t lookers and not even been able to fit into a subcultural group. Now take the art industry and have it all priced at a cartel rate because some artists are not more talented than others says the US congress. The chimp’s finger painting is worth just as much money as the sculptor or the stunt artist getting people to pay to take selfies with the banana on the wall and seeing if they’ll eat it or not. Say we have an artist. Let’s call him Duffman. He makes beer. Moe sells his beer at Moe’s Tavern but doesn’t even pay Duffman in advance what it costs to make anymore. The customers, Barney, Carl, Homer, and Larry used to pay Moe and Moe paid Duffman per keg minus the amount Moe loaned him to brew the beer. Now they pay Moe’s landlord, real estate company partially owned by Fat Tony, and Fat Tony only pays out at Mayor Quimby’s cartel rate per keg that’s less than what it costs to produce because Fat Tony has “lobbied” Mayor Quimby and Fat Tony only pays out based on whatever his accountants can determine is his “net revenue.” Now away from this are hidden minimums paid to Krusty Burger for Fat Tony’s Restaurant Group’s right to collect payments and deliver product for Krusty, who’s also invested with Fat Tony in his real estate company. Krusty is the business using Fat Tony like a tax farmer because then he has an excuse to cut his pay roll and he owns part of it too because his old franchisees and suppliers who never signed up for this scheme. On top of this Fat Tony is throwing Luigi’s wine right in the face of Homer and co and he’s employing Snake and Cletus to make bathtub gin and moonshine that Fat Tony can’t sell but it eats away at his net revenue that he has to pay a portion back of. Moe might not even have to pay Duffman anything if Fat Tony’s lawyers can get him out of it. Instead he just gives Duffman warm kegs of beer back to sell for him to pay rent as he drives a van around promoting the beer he made that Moe sells. And this is all legal because Mayor Quimby is involved and is allowed to buy shares of both Fat Tony’s real estate company and Krusty Burger. Duffman cannot even afford to eat at Krusty Burger. This is the music industry in America. Thank you for such a succinct and direct recommendation on an affordable interface used for some simple at home tracking! Twas a fun read though. RIP Larry. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by bossanova on Jun 10, 2024 16:04:42 GMT -6
I bought a MOTU M4 for around $200 used. It does all the things I need it to do and sounds very clean. If you want more color, you can always use an external pre into one of the line inputs.  |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jun 10, 2024 19:55:21 GMT -6
I've used a couple of the older Steinberg boxes for recording a trio of flute, cello and piano. I really liked the results. The recordings have good spread, and wide frequency response. Newer ones also have Ruper Never Designs transformers, but I haven't heard those. The bass player and singer (George) in our little project you play drums on tracks his bass and vocals on a two or four channel Steinberg with RND transformers. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 10, 2024 21:18:36 GMT -6
OK, I consider Dan a friend and I respect Dan’s Uhber Geekdom ( highest compliment) few have dug into the weeds as much as Dan has when it comes to digital but, and my RADAR will probably crash for me saying this but honestly today even the cheapest Behringer interface isn’t going to keep you from making music. The key here is this “ Best” is open ended, is it Sonics ? Support? Stability? RME is far from perfect but they are found all around the world in some pretty well respected prestigious situations ( yeah the guy you see on the RME site talking about RME & Blueman Group is an old high school friend so slight conflict but honestly you will find a friend or former client on just about every respected interface vendors sight so minimal conflict). I do still love their PCIE cards, but RME and Lynx are about all that’s left, about the only one who has better drivers is Metric Halo, but that’s Mac only.. I do hate total Mix, I really, really wish at the very least they would print a comprehensive manual that covers it but I went from PT TDM to RME / logic and hated having to use 2 applications. My advice, don’t buy thinking about what you need today, think long term growth. The 2 reasons you see so many small interfaces used are 1. People realize they are not going to be the next Billy Elish. 2. They realize they need more I/O. I know Dan is all about the Sonics and yes they are important, but as someone who had the problematic Audient ( hey I love my DDA console) drivers and stability are as if not more more important. About 6 years ago I saved an Otari Status console $15k when new new with recall VCA automation and onboard dynamics from the dumpster, it sits in storage because a Behringer interface blew it away. yet for all this thread, gearslutz chatter, and rme forum, having artifacts / severe reflections on the vocal like Billie Eilish recording will just get you fired from a lot of gigs. Or they will have a revision on you. Or they just won’t pay you on the back end and send it to someone else or go with the rough because this is the real world. The pumping and breathing in the voices from poorly set or chosen compressors will get you a revision or fired. The artifacts from the cheap condensers being audible in the final mix could get you fired. The audible reflections could get you fired. Not everyone can be a nepo baby, beat maker who strikes it gold sampling a more talented artist, or a no nothing “producer” moving faders because he can play guitar and hung out with someone 20 years ago. This stuff is horrible. It’s truly horrible. And for all we can hate on Finneas, Billie Eilish, the last 20 yes’s of rap, horrible metal, and lil xan’s flaming hot Cheeto ulcer, a lot of that self produced but schizophrenic quality stuff still sounds like it was once a human voice which is somewhat striking when you compare it to pop music where half the vocals could be ai synthesized and tuned, effected, and stuck in front of a plastic surgery recut modern day milli vanilli or hologram. Even so it is nothing to be praised. It is a triumph of ugly egalitarianism, consumerism, and ultimately, conformity to subgenres that tolerate it for just being conformist. The labels are right they can sell anything. The music industry starting with the rise of pretty much talentless nepo baby indie artists back when it still had money became like the art industry. It’s often an industry for rich people who don’t have to work to masturbate to the lack of talent of other rich people because then don’t believe in technical skill anymore, unlike even early modern art. All they have to do is conform ultimately. The art industry now believes in egotistical self reflection, money laundering, plagiarism is all but the very legal definition, making up new definitions of what a sale is, when you made the art, lying if you made the art, etc. and sales are often are just a lie as any of number of complex securities and the so called financial products that dominate the economy of many areas because we no longer make anything and it must be made as cheap as possible to pocket the rest and pay off politicians. High Price by Isabelle Graw is a good book on the art market and this now seems to be true in the music industry even at the smaller independent label level where they only sign people who conform, do it as cheap as possible, make up shit beyond the music or recording as it is itself to sell it became they sure cannot sell it as absolute art anymore unlike all the older songs where the lyrics and aesthetics were often after thoughts and the people playing it weren’t lookers and not even been able to fit into a subcultural group. Now take the art industry and have it all priced at a cartel rate because some artists are not more talented than others says the US congress. The chimp’s finger painting is worth just as much money as the sculptor or the stunt artist getting people to pay to take selfies with the banana on the wall and seeing if they’ll eat it or not. Say we have an artist. Let’s call him Duffman. He makes beer. Moe sells his beer at Moe’s Tavern but doesn’t even pay Duffman in advance what it costs to make anymore. The customers, Barney, Carl, Homer, and Larry used to pay Moe and Moe paid Duffman per keg minus the amount Moe loaned him to brew the beer. Now they pay Moe’s landlord, real estate company partially owned by Fat Tony, and Fat Tony only pays out at Mayor Quimby’s cartel rate per keg that’s less than what it costs to produce because Fat Tony has “lobbied” Mayor Quimby and Fat Tony only pays out based on whatever his accountants can determine is his “net revenue.” Now away from this are hidden minimums paid to Krusty Burger for Fat Tony’s Restaurant Group’s right to collect payments and deliver product for Krusty, who’s also invested with Fat Tony in his real estate company. Krusty is the business using Fat Tony like a tax farmer because then he has an excuse to cut his pay roll and he owns part of it too because his old franchisees and suppliers who never signed up for this scheme. On top of this Fat Tony is throwing Luigi’s wine right in the face of Homer and co and he’s employing Snake and Cletus to make bathtub gin and moonshine that Fat Tony can’t sell but it eats away at his net revenue that he has to pay a portion back of. Moe might not even have to pay Duffman anything if Fat Tony’s lawyers can get him out of it. Instead he just gives Duffman warm kegs of beer back to sell for him to pay rent as he drives a van around promoting the beer he made that Moe sells. And this is all legal because Mayor Quimby is involved and is allowed to buy shares of both Fat Tony’s real estate company and Krusty Burger. Duffman cannot even afford to eat at Krusty Burger. This is the music industry in America. I totally agree with this. Not the technical "artifacts ruin everything part" (too many years sitting next to screaming keyboard amps and crash cymbals at ear level). But the way the music industry has aped the modern art world's collapse into irrelevance. I actually wrote a thesis on this 20 years ago after reading an essay in Tom Wolfe's "Hooking Up" where he talks about how the art machine has reached a point where it deliberately prefers low quality art because it's easier to "gatekeeper" the riff raff out. The trust fund art gallery owners (I'm visiting one in NYC next week actually... old friend. And yes. Trust fund. Nice dude... but clueless) are all doing an Emperor's No Clothes thing while the rest of the world looks and says "I don't get it, it's ugly." Music has been moving that way for a while. Classical fell first. Jazz was next. Then they came for rock and roll. Then hip hop fell. Country music still seems to reward talent to some degree even if I don't like most of it. Raise your hand if you think a band as creative and unique as, say, Radiohead would stand a chance in an environment that deliberately wants things to sound bad. The only way to to take it back is through live music and then rebuild from there. (END OF OFF TOPIC RANT) |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 10, 2024 21:27:28 GMT -6
the little $600 Avid is supposed to sound really good.
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Post by drumsound on Jun 10, 2024 22:27:54 GMT -6
I've used a couple of the older Steinberg boxes for recording a trio of flute, cello and piano. I really liked the results. The recordings have good spread, and wide frequency response. Newer ones also have Ruper Never Designs transformers, but I haven't heard those. The bass player and singer (George) in our little project you play drums on tracks his bass and vocals on a two or four channel Steinberg with RND transformers. His bass and vocals always sound good to me (especially after @johnken gets after it). |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jun 11, 2024 1:00:33 GMT -6
Thank you for such a succinct and direct recommendation on an affordable interface used for some simple at home tracking! I mean there are many two channel apogee elements floating around for well under 400 bucks if you have a Mac with thunderbolt connection. Hard to beat that for a low latency, clean interface with no awful cheap pots that can break. 8 channel one for under 800 dollars. Just don’t fry the thunderbolt chipset. Edit if you need usb, there are used baby face pros for around 600-800 bucks. Not the current FS ESS version. Just don’t fry the discontinued AKM converters. Element is EOL (due to the thunderbolt controller, which has effected a few manufacturers), hard to say how long Apogee will continue to update drivers....... I'd take the chance for the right price. Which is why i currently have a Antelope Discrete 8. |
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Post by bluesholyman on Jun 11, 2024 7:03:06 GMT -6
I mean there are many two channel apogee elements floating around for well under 400 bucks if you have a Mac with thunderbolt connection. Hard to beat that for a low latency, clean interface with no awful cheap pots that can break. 8 channel one for under 800 dollars. Just don’t fry the thunderbolt chipset. Edit if you need usb, there are used baby face pros for around 600-800 bucks. Not the current FS ESS version. Just don’t fry the discontinued AKM converters. Element is EOL (due to the thunderbolt controller, which has effected a few manufacturers), hard to say how long Apogee will continue to update drivers....... I'd take the chance for the right price. Which is why i currently have a Antelope Discrete 8. Whats your experience with Antelope? I have a zen go on my work machine which does the job, but I haven't done anything musical with it, except playback stuff. So far so good, but people seem to hate Antelope for their lack of customer support when things go wrong. |
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Post by nick8801 on Jun 11, 2024 7:56:58 GMT -6
I have no problem with the Focusrite Scarlett stuff. I use them with my students at work, and I used to take a 2 channel Firewire Saffire out on mobile gigs. I would always take the recording back to the studio and master it through better gear, but never ever had an issue with sonics or reliability.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 11, 2024 8:49:29 GMT -6
IMHO the fine points depend once more, on how fussy of an ear you have and/or the Client. I made "the mistake" first listening to a Lynx Unit... My Buddy Albert Margolis* had me listen to. Wow! Like how the first time Wes had me sing/listen to one of his AEA 44's. You taste the ($omewhat) Forbidden Fruit. Watch out! Plus I like Dan's posts. Similar to Plush's, they're thought provoking. I do factor in "Mic coverup", dealing with budget Pre's. Sometimes a Smear Campaign is effective! Chris |
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Post by chessparov on Jun 11, 2024 8:52:30 GMT -6
yet for all this thread, gearslutz chatter, and rme forum, having artifacts / severe reflections on the vocal like Billie Eilish recording will just get you fired from a lot of gigs. Or they will have a revision on you. Or they just won’t pay you on the back end and send it to someone else or go with the rough because this is the real world. The pumping and breathing in the voices from poorly set or chosen compressors will get you a revision or fired. The artifacts from the cheap condensers being audible in the final mix could get you fired. The audible reflections could get you fired. Not everyone can be a nepo baby, beat maker who strikes it gold sampling a more talented artist, or a no nothing “producer” moving faders because he can play guitar and hung out with someone 20 years ago. This stuff is horrible. It’s truly horrible. And for all we can hate on Finneas, Billie Eilish, the last 20 yes’s of rap, horrible metal, and lil xan’s flaming hot Cheeto ulcer, a lot of that self produced but schizophrenic quality stuff still sounds like it was once a human voice which is somewhat striking when you compare it to pop music where half the vocals could be ai synthesized and tuned, effected, and stuck in front of a plastic surgery recut modern day milli vanilli or hologram. Even so it is nothing to be praised. It is a triumph of ugly egalitarianism, consumerism, and ultimately, conformity to subgenres that tolerate it for just being conformist. The labels are right they can sell anything. The music industry starting with the rise of pretty much talentless nepo baby indie artists back when it still had money became like the art industry. It’s often an industry for rich people who don’t have to work to masturbate to the lack of talent of other rich people because then don’t believe in technical skill anymore, unlike even early modern art. All they have to do is conform ultimately. The art industry now believes in egotistical self reflection, money laundering, plagiarism is all but the very legal definition, making up new definitions of what a sale is, when you made the art, lying if you made the art, etc. and sales are often are just a lie as any of number of complex securities and the so called financial products that dominate the economy of many areas because we no longer make anything and it must be made as cheap as possible to pocket the rest and pay off politicians. High Price by Isabelle Graw is a good book on the art market and this now seems to be true in the music industry even at the smaller independent label level where they only sign people who conform, do it as cheap as possible, make up shit beyond the music or recording as it is itself to sell it became they sure cannot sell it as absolute art anymore unlike all the older songs where the lyrics and aesthetics were often after thoughts and the people playing it weren’t lookers and not even been able to fit into a subcultural group. Now take the art industry and have it all priced at a cartel rate because some artists are not more talented than others says the US congress. The chimp’s finger painting is worth just as much money as the sculptor or the stunt artist getting people to pay to take selfies with the banana on the wall and seeing if they’ll eat it or not. Say we have an artist. Let’s call him Duffman. He makes beer. Moe sells his beer at Moe’s Tavern but doesn’t even pay Duffman in advance what it costs to make anymore. The customers, Barney, Carl, Homer, and Larry used to pay Moe and Moe paid Duffman per keg minus the amount Moe loaned him to brew the beer. Now they pay Moe’s landlord, real estate company partially owned by Fat Tony, and Fat Tony only pays out at Mayor Quimby’s cartel rate per keg that’s less than what it costs to produce because Fat Tony has “lobbied” Mayor Quimby and Fat Tony only pays out based on whatever his accountants can determine is his “net revenue.” Now away from this are hidden minimums paid to Krusty Burger for Fat Tony’s Restaurant Group’s right to collect payments and deliver product for Krusty, who’s also invested with Fat Tony in his real estate company. Krusty is the business using Fat Tony like a tax farmer because then he has an excuse to cut his pay roll and he owns part of it too because his old franchisees and suppliers who never signed up for this scheme. On top of this Fat Tony is throwing Luigi’s wine right in the face of Homer and co and he’s employing Snake and Cletus to make bathtub gin and moonshine that Fat Tony can’t sell but it eats away at his net revenue that he has to pay a portion back of. Moe might not even have to pay Duffman anything if Fat Tony’s lawyers can get him out of it. Instead he just gives Duffman warm kegs of beer back to sell for him to pay rent as he drives a van around promoting the beer he made that Moe sells. And this is all legal because Mayor Quimby is involved and is allowed to buy shares of both Fat Tony’s real estate company and Krusty Burger. Duffman cannot even afford to eat at Krusty Burger. This is the music industry in America. I totally agree with this. Not the technical "artifacts ruin everything part" (too many years sitting next to screaming keyboard amps and crash cymbals at ear level). But the way the music industry has aped the modern art world's collapse into irrelevance. I actually wrote a thesis on this 20 years ago after reading an essay in Tom Wolfe's "Hooking Up" where he talks about how the art machine has reached a point where it deliberately prefers low quality art because it's easier to "gatekeeper" the riff raff out. The trust fund art gallery owners (I'm visiting one in NYC next week actually... old friend. And yes. Trust fund. Nice dude... but clueless) are all doing an Emperor's No Clothes thing while the rest of the world looks and says "I don't get it, it's ugly." Music has been moving that way for a while. Classical fell first. Jazz was next. Then they came for rock and roll. Then hip hop fell. Country music still seems to reward talent to some degree even if I don't like most of it. Raise your hand if you think a band as creative and unique as, say, Radiohead would stand a chance in an environment that deliberately wants things to sound bad. The only way to to take it back is through live music and then rebuild from there. (END OF OFF TOPIC RANT) Great rant. But lay off the Rap and Hip Hop. We don't want to upset John Eppstein Those are his fave. LOL! |
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Ox Han
Junior Member
Posts: 93
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Post by Ox Han on Jun 11, 2024 8:58:53 GMT -6
Babyface pro fs is good & can be found used for under USD$800
The Neve 88m sounds really good in every demo I’ve heard. Wish they made a four preamp version
Could go with an Apollo twin or x4
The SSL 12 or UA volt 476 might be ok, but I’m skeptical of both
YMMV
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083 
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2024 9:08:49 GMT -6
I totally agree with this. Not the technical "artifacts ruin everything part" (too many years sitting next to screaming keyboard amps and crash cymbals at ear level). But the way the music industry has aped the modern art world's collapse into irrelevance. I actually wrote a thesis on this 20 years ago after reading an essay in Tom Wolfe's "Hooking Up" where he talks about how the art machine has reached a point where it deliberately prefers low quality art because it's easier to "gatekeeper" the riff raff out. The trust fund art gallery owners (I'm visiting one in NYC next week actually... old friend. And yes. Trust fund. Nice dude... but clueless) are all doing an Emperor's No Clothes thing while the rest of the world looks and says "I don't get it, it's ugly." Music has been moving that way for a while. Classical fell first. Jazz was next. Then they came for rock and roll. Then hip hop fell. Country music still seems to reward talent to some degree even if I don't like most of it. Raise your hand if you think a band as creative and unique as, say, Radiohead would stand a chance in an environment that deliberately wants things to sound bad. The only way to to take it back is through live music and then rebuild from there. (END OF OFF TOPIC RANT) Great rant. But lay off the Rap and Hip Hop. We don't want to upset John Eppstein Those are his fave. LOL! I thought upsetting John was a new Olympic event 😁 |
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Post by FM77 on Jun 11, 2024 9:36:21 GMT -6
Great rant. But lay off the Rap and Hip Hop. We don't want to upset John Eppstein Those are his fave. LOL! I thought upsetting John was a new Olympic event 😁
I am a Gold medalist. A hall of famer...going back almost 2 decades.
To quote Jerry Seinfeld, 'I think all you need is a face'.
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Post by paulcheeba on Jun 12, 2024 2:20:01 GMT -6
RME fs is what I use with Ableton and it sounds pro.
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Post by reddirt on Jun 12, 2024 2:52:04 GMT -6
I reckon you should get at least 4 ins : e.g.- acoustic / vocal / bass / 2nd guitar. or stereo piano / Vox/ bass; IMHO, mad to get anything less.
No one ever mentions the Neumann interface , would be interested to know how that rolls.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by vintagelove on Jun 12, 2024 8:57:30 GMT -6
+1 on a used apogee element. Good conversion and preamps with an excellent low latency monitoring solution, and adat I/o. You can also sync any 2 elements.
That's a lot of awesome for 200 bucks.
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Post by Dan on Jun 12, 2024 9:05:13 GMT -6
yet for all this thread, gearslutz chatter, and rme forum, having artifacts / severe reflections on the vocal like Billie Eilish recording will just get you fired from a lot of gigs. Or they will have a revision on you. Or they just won’t pay you on the back end and send it to someone else or go with the rough because this is the real world. The pumping and breathing in the voices from poorly set or chosen compressors will get you a revision or fired. The artifacts from the cheap condensers being audible in the final mix could get you fired. The audible reflections could get you fired. Not everyone can be a nepo baby, beat maker who strikes it gold sampling a more talented artist, or a no nothing “producer” moving faders because he can play guitar and hung out with someone 20 years ago. This stuff is horrible. It’s truly horrible. And for all we can hate on Finneas, Billie Eilish, the last 20 yes’s of rap, horrible metal, and lil xan’s flaming hot Cheeto ulcer, a lot of that self produced but schizophrenic quality stuff still sounds like it was once a human voice which is somewhat striking when you compare it to pop music where half the vocals could be ai synthesized and tuned, effected, and stuck in front of a plastic surgery recut modern day milli vanilli or hologram. Even so it is nothing to be praised. It is a triumph of ugly egalitarianism, consumerism, and ultimately, conformity to subgenres that tolerate it for just being conformist. The labels are right they can sell anything. The music industry starting with the rise of pretty much talentless nepo baby indie artists back when it still had money became like the art industry. It’s often an industry for rich people who don’t have to work to masturbate to the lack of talent of other rich people because then don’t believe in technical skill anymore, unlike even early modern art. All they have to do is conform ultimately. The art industry now believes in egotistical self reflection, money laundering, plagiarism is all but the very legal definition, making up new definitions of what a sale is, when you made the art, lying if you made the art, etc. and sales are often are just a lie as any of number of complex securities and the so called financial products that dominate the economy of many areas because we no longer make anything and it must be made as cheap as possible to pocket the rest and pay off politicians. High Price by Isabelle Graw is a good book on the art market and this now seems to be true in the music industry even at the smaller independent label level where they only sign people who conform, do it as cheap as possible, make up shit beyond the music or recording as it is itself to sell it became they sure cannot sell it as absolute art anymore unlike all the older songs where the lyrics and aesthetics were often after thoughts and the people playing it weren’t lookers and not even been able to fit into a subcultural group. Now take the art industry and have it all priced at a cartel rate because some artists are not more talented than others says the US congress. The chimp’s finger painting is worth just as much money as the sculptor or the stunt artist getting people to pay to take selfies with the banana on the wall and seeing if they’ll eat it or not. Say we have an artist. Let’s call him Duffman. He makes beer. Moe sells his beer at Moe’s Tavern but doesn’t even pay Duffman in advance what it costs to make anymore. The customers, Barney, Carl, Homer, and Larry used to pay Moe and Moe paid Duffman per keg minus the amount Moe loaned him to brew the beer. Now they pay Moe’s landlord, real estate company partially owned by Fat Tony, and Fat Tony only pays out at Mayor Quimby’s cartel rate per keg that’s less than what it costs to produce because Fat Tony has “lobbied” Mayor Quimby and Fat Tony only pays out based on whatever his accountants can determine is his “net revenue.” Now away from this are hidden minimums paid to Krusty Burger for Fat Tony’s Restaurant Group’s right to collect payments and deliver product for Krusty, who’s also invested with Fat Tony in his real estate company. Krusty is the business using Fat Tony like a tax farmer because then he has an excuse to cut his pay roll and he owns part of it too because his old franchisees and suppliers who never signed up for this scheme. On top of this Fat Tony is throwing Luigi’s wine right in the face of Homer and co and he’s employing Snake and Cletus to make bathtub gin and moonshine that Fat Tony can’t sell but it eats away at his net revenue that he has to pay a portion back of. Moe might not even have to pay Duffman anything if Fat Tony’s lawyers can get him out of it. Instead he just gives Duffman warm kegs of beer back to sell for him to pay rent as he drives a van around promoting the beer he made that Moe sells. And this is all legal because Mayor Quimby is involved and is allowed to buy shares of both Fat Tony’s real estate company and Krusty Burger. Duffman cannot even afford to eat at Krusty Burger. This is the music industry in America. I totally agree with this. Not the technical "artifacts ruin everything part" (too many years sitting next to screaming keyboard amps and crash cymbals at ear level). But the way the music industry has aped the modern art world's collapse into irrelevance. I actually wrote a thesis on this 20 years ago after reading an essay in Tom Wolfe's "Hooking Up" where he talks about how the art machine has reached a point where it deliberately prefers low quality art because it's easier to "gatekeeper" the riff raff out. The trust fund art gallery owners (I'm visiting one in NYC next week actually... old friend. And yes. Trust fund. Nice dude... but clueless) are all doing an Emperor's No Clothes thing while the rest of the world looks and says "I don't get it, it's ugly." Music has been moving that way for a while. Classical fell first. Jazz was next. Then they came for rock and roll. Then hip hop fell. Country music still seems to reward talent to some degree even if I don't like most of it. Raise your hand if you think a band as creative and unique as, say, Radiohead would stand a chance in an environment that deliberately wants things to sound bad. The only way to to take it back is through live music and then rebuild from there. (END OF OFF TOPIC RANT) You can see it in metal and punk in real time too. Classic metal becomes glam but even then David Coverdale got John Sykes to play on the Whitesnake self titled and fired him before the recording was even finished, thrash becomes arena rock, death metal becomes death n roll pretty much butt rock with growls, black metal becomes indie rock. Then the labels try to bring it back and we get a pastiche that’s literal crap. They were playing Soundgarden at a brewery I went to last weekend and I was thinking no musicians that talented would be allowed to become a rockstars today. The labels try to bring back all do this stuff and it is pretty much butt rock with a pastiche. Even a lot of recent country is pretty much 80s and 90s arena rock with twang. Now we have the dumb down of the dumb down as the most popular acts, appropriating the music / look of certain typical born rich indie artists who stole it verbatim from a 70s-90s artists only instead of busking, squatting, working at a car wash, driving a van around trying to make it, they had a silver spoon with blow on it. Even then the wanting to sound really bad is pretty recent. You have the over loud parts and clipping but the deliberately poor everything else comes later and now we have idiots on the internet arguing on the other site that it’s all about the vibe of a take so the equipment doesn’t matter. Like you’re recording it, make it sound as clean or cool as possible and let the producer go outside and smoke whatever (it might even be crack) and decide what the best take is. Idiocracy. |
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Post by bluesholyman on Jun 12, 2024 9:48:27 GMT -6
I reckon you should get at least 4 ins : e.g.- acoustic / vocal / bass / 2nd guitar. or stereo piano / Vox/ bass; IMHO, mad to get anything less. No one ever mentions the Neumann interface , would be interested to know how that rolls. Cheers, Ross It rolls with dollar bills... |
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Post by Dan on Jun 12, 2024 9:55:53 GMT -6
I reckon you should get at least 4 ins : e.g.- acoustic / vocal / bass / 2nd guitar. or stereo piano / Vox/ bass; IMHO, mad to get anything less. No one ever mentions the Neumann interface , would be interested to know how that rolls. Cheers, Ross It rolls with dollar bills... Yep it has that Neumann markup and was a cheaped out, okay “value engineered”, version of another interface, the merging Anubis, that was controversial because it was a desktop interface that had a fan in it 😬 |
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Post by bluesholyman on Jun 12, 2024 10:03:48 GMT -6
+1 on a used apogee element. Good conversion and preamps with an excellent low latency monitoring solution, and adat I/o. You can also sync any 2 elements. That's a lot of awesome for 200 bucks. My only concern about something like this is beign able to use it on Mac Silicon, driver support, etc. I am probably better served, long term, by something newer with support for Silicon. |
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