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Post by andtide on Sept 21, 2024 11:33:38 GMT -6
IME it’s not just the toft boards, I’ve always had a cue mixer of some variety in the loop. Mackie IME has been the most robust, used them live quite a few times as well with no issues and they did get knocked around a fair bit. They’re not bad sounding boards but unless there’s a specific need for one then an audio interface generally sounds better and costs less. Some of the lower end stuff like Soundcraft or Yammie boards didn’t even last two months. A&H is a bit hit or miss, the GSR-24 was amazing as a concept but for the price I think they bit off more than they could chew. The SSL big six has been an “interesting” journey, stupid amounts of headroom, TRS inserts and I/O across the board. Preamps sound 9k(ish) and they’re okay, not amazing but not bad but overall, limited in many ways of course but better sounding than some of the LFAC’s I’ve used in the past. Unfortunately as an early adopter I experienced the brunt of QA problems like switches not working, loose connectors, clicking from the power supply & additional noise. The third board I’ve had well over a year now and touch many pieces of wood I’ve had zero issues plus it’s been used live / knocked around a bit. As a previous owner of an SSL console, and head eng at a place with a few, I really despise SSL. Mostly the pure disdain they have for their customers. I could go on and on about SSL like Eric was about toft LOL. And sorry to say this to any folks with current gear, but other than the bus plus (which mind you I have LED powering issues!) The origin, the new UC controllers, 500 series, fusion, SiX, etc.. all feel like cheap knock off of old gear. The Bus plus doesnt feel cheap- but again issues within months of ownership. Even their stuff pre-duality was like.. often times not great but at least it FELT like all of your $$$$$ went somewhere. I'll be getting an Audient, which I can say through a ton of collected testimonials from folks, may not be the pinnacle of greatness, but are super resilient and need little maintenance, a LOT less then the other Neves and SSLs I wasted my time with. Just remembering the remote service fees (without adjustment for inflation) makes me want to shrivel. |
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Post by andtide on Sept 21, 2024 11:37:21 GMT -6
Also- feel bad for all poor souls getting the new Neve gear with so MUCH digital bologna that will be such a boat anchor in years to come- and I've worked for years on two Libra's LOL. (They were great, until they broke, and then you had a boat anchor.)
The only digital stuff I'll have in a couple months is my computer, its peripherals, an interface, an ipad for transport and automation, and thats it. Done wasting time on stuff that one day- no worky.
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Post by poppaflavor on Sept 25, 2024 4:34:44 GMT -6
Wow. So I've been looking at some inductor EQs from Interphase Audio. While I don't understand the relationships and history, I found it really interesting that they give this massive disclaimer at the bottom of the page of their rackmount EQ. "Fun fact: the Ocean Audio Signature Three was NOT designed by Malcolm Toft. The Signature Three was designed by Allan Bradford, our chief electronics designer. NDUCR is the new (and improved) version of the Signature Three, also designed by Allan Bradford." www.interphase.audio/NDUCR/Seems like a few folks are living under the weight of Tofts coattails. |
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Post by Shadowk on Sept 25, 2024 15:53:13 GMT -6
IME it’s not just the toft boards, I’ve always had a cue mixer of some variety in the loop. Mackie IME has been the most robust, used them live quite a few times as well with no issues and they did get knocked around a fair bit. They’re not bad sounding boards but unless there’s a specific need for one then an audio interface generally sounds better and costs less. Some of the lower end stuff like Soundcraft or Yammie boards didn’t even last two months. A&H is a bit hit or miss, the GSR-24 was amazing as a concept but for the price I think they bit off more than they could chew. The SSL big six has been an “interesting” journey, stupid amounts of headroom, TRS inserts and I/O across the board. Preamps sound 9k(ish) and they’re okay, not amazing but not bad but overall, limited in many ways of course but better sounding than some of the LFAC’s I’ve used in the past. Unfortunately as an early adopter I experienced the brunt of QA problems like switches not working, loose connectors, clicking from the power supply & additional noise. The third board I’ve had well over a year now and touch many pieces of wood I’ve had zero issues plus it’s been used live / knocked around a bit. As a previous owner of an SSL console, and head eng at a place with a few, I really despise SSL. Mostly the pure disdain they have for their customers. I could go on and on about SSL like Eric was about toft LOL. And sorry to say this to any folks with current gear, but other than the bus plus (which mind you I have LED powering issues!) The origin, the new UC controllers, 500 series, fusion, SiX, etc.. all feel like cheap knock off of old gear. The Bus plus doesnt feel cheap- but again issues within months of ownership. Even their stuff pre-duality was like.. often times not great but at least it FELT like all of your $$$$$ went somewhere. I'll be getting an Audient, which I can say through a ton of collected testimonials from folks, may not be the pinnacle of greatness, but are super resilient and need little maintenance, a LOT less then the other Neves and SSLs I wasted my time with. Just remembering the remote service fees (without adjustment for inflation) makes me want to shrivel. Well, find me another desk under 5k that can do as much and sound as good as the Big Six then we’ll talk. It’s not like I’m an “avid” follower of brands SSL just innovated in the project studio area and nothing really competes. As for the rest I’ll take your word for it as the 4k I had and the 9k at uni required us to fix them. Firstly because it was outside of warranty, secondly because you couldn’t pass the course if you didn’t know how to. Personally if the console bug struck me again I’d get an old broadcast / studio console like the BBC stuff for cheap and do it up. Then again I always think time, money, workflow and most importantly.. Room reflections.. I’d be less concerned if I had a ground up million dollar room butttt.. I don’t so.. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 25, 2024 19:09:23 GMT -6
As a previous owner of an SSL console, and head eng at a place with a few, I really despise SSL. Mostly the pure disdain they have for their customers. I could go on and on about SSL like Eric was about toft LOL. And sorry to say this to any folks with current gear, but other than the bus plus (which mind you I have LED powering issues!) The origin, the new UC controllers, 500 series, fusion, SiX, etc.. all feel like cheap knock off of old gear. The Bus plus doesnt feel cheap- but again issues within months of ownership. Even their stuff pre-duality was like.. often times not great but at least it FELT like all of your $$$$$ went somewhere. I'll be getting an Audient, which I can say through a ton of collected testimonials from folks, may not be the pinnacle of greatness, but are super resilient and need little maintenance, a LOT less then the other Neves and SSLs I wasted my time with. Just remembering the remote service fees (without adjustment for inflation) makes me want to shrivel. Well, find me another desk under 5k that can do as much and sound as good as the Big Six then we’ll talk. It’s not like I’m an “avid” follower of brands SSL just innovated in the project studio area and nothing really competes. As for the rest I’ll take your word for it as the 4k I had and the 9k at uni required us to fix them. Firstly because it was outside of warranty, secondly because you couldn’t pass the course if you didn’t know how to. Personally if the console bug struck me again I’d get an old broadcast / studio console like the BBC stuff for cheap and do it up. Then again I always think time, money, workflow and most importantly.. Room reflections.. I’d be less concerned if I had a ground up million dollar room butttt.. I don’t so.. Danny, your post F$@king pisses me off, not because of you or anything like that but after 3 reads before I responded I realized this in many ways you are so absolutely Fing right. The big six is probably the best currently available sounding and feature packed console, but as I look at the DDA sleeping here, it is built like a Behringer! Sorry my friend, but the P&G’s on my 16 buss / line I/o modules and the the top of the line ALPS on my mic input modules are weeping! These are very strange times, but I have to admit I’m waiting for the new masters of SSL to figure out the fact that if they built a modern 4K in China without recall or automation they could probably pay off the debt from buying SSL! |
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Post by Shadowk on Sept 26, 2024 10:16:34 GMT -6
But as I look at the DDA sleeping here, it is built like a Behringer! Sorry my friend, but the P&G’s on my 16 buss / line I/o modules and the the top of the line ALPS on my mic input modules are weeping! I'm sorry Eric and this is more of a reflection on me in the past (so read on) as opposed to anyone else but it seems like there's a bit of cork sniffing going on. The SSL has fully balanced I/O, +27dBu headroom, 0.0015% THD, low crosstalk, converters that are better than my old 1248 / 16A combo and it doesn't sound like a bland interface like some boards (or even LFAC's) do so why in any way should it be any sort of limiting factor? Even if it is built like a B? I could never blame this board for any sort of imbalance with my mixes or recordings. Then again I couldn't blame the mid range MOTU interfaces either..
At one point due to circumstances (as I didn't really need a company car anymore) I looked into selling it and buying a proper console, fortunately I didn't due to heavy medical bills and other stuff that was to come in the future but at the time it was 100% on the cards. Back then I had a Big Six and when it came down to it the justification inside a project / home studio was none existent although I didn't stop due to some weird compulsion to spend more to get "results" (if I was tracking bands all together constantly etc. then I'd reconsider the console thing but it's too rare and there's other ways around it). Anyway, some desks sounded different but better? Well, hmm, maybe? No? Sort of?.. Although in my specific circumstances it's a bit different because I already had quite a bit of HW, like API, SH, IAA mic amps and a mass selection of outboard compressors. So, it's a bit of an unfair comparison when you're already running $3K's worth of HW per channel. Including the board and channels 1-4 alone we're at what $15K?
If it's a matter of reliability then I'm lost here because price has never factored into it IME, I've had to repair the overly complex dual SMB's in the Shelford twice which isn't exactly cheap, some hand wired $4K each units also failed in the first six months and I mean the only two things I've never had to touch in the space of a decade (even for tubes, calibrations or general small things) is my Engl Retrotube and any Dynaudio's. What it's about for me is customer service service, take Mojave for example I'll never stop singing their praises after I knocked over an out of warranty mic I owned and they helped me out for nothing. Didn't have to, I in no way expected it but they did and hey they probably knew that I'd be telling everyone how amazing they are.
If this board breaks which IME they all do at some point, it just depends how they cheaped out or what their service intervals are and if SSL aren't willing to help then I'd probably just never bother with them again and use an audio interface with a CUE FX DSP mixer plus a DAW with ping facilities for the HW. Then again that also depends on if I need parts or if it's something simple like a cap replacement, I might not end up contacting them so it's neither here nor there.
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Post by poppaflavor on Sept 26, 2024 11:46:01 GMT -6
most importantly.. Room reflections.. Hah. What a buzz kill. I was totally going Walter Mitty style visualizing my fingers soaring about on the faders of my brand new grand console... that would have had to be slapped into a shamefully inappropriate space. So I've pivoted, first it's buying that loft in the multi-use zone downtown area and *then* getting the console. Thanks for helping me focus :-) |
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Post by andtide on Sept 30, 2024 11:22:17 GMT -6
As a previous owner of an SSL console, and head eng at a place with a few, I really despise SSL. Mostly the pure disdain they have for their customers. I could go on and on about SSL like Eric was about toft LOL. And sorry to say this to any folks with current gear, but other than the bus plus (which mind you I have LED powering issues!) The origin, the new UC controllers, 500 series, fusion, SiX, etc.. all feel like cheap knock off of old gear. The Bus plus doesnt feel cheap- but again issues within months of ownership. Even their stuff pre-duality was like.. often times not great but at least it FELT like all of your $$$$$ went somewhere. I'll be getting an Audient, which I can say through a ton of collected testimonials from folks, may not be the pinnacle of greatness, but are super resilient and need little maintenance, a LOT less then the other Neves and SSLs I wasted my time with. Just remembering the remote service fees (without adjustment for inflation) makes me want to shrivel. Well, find me another desk under 5k that can do as much and sound as good as the Big Six then we’ll talk. It’s not like I’m an “avid” follower of brands SSL just innovated in the project studio area and nothing really competes. As for the rest I’ll take your word for it as the 4k I had and the 9k at uni required us to fix them. Firstly because it was outside of warranty, secondly because you couldn’t pass the course if you didn’t know how to. Personally if the console bug struck me again I’d get an old broadcast / studio console like the BBC stuff for cheap and do it up. Then again I always think time, money, workflow and most importantly.. Room reflections.. I’d be less concerned if I had a ground up million dollar room butttt.. I don’t so.. IDK I guess for me the Big Six is like a lot of similar offerings, has cool stuff but not the functionality that I need. Most importantly relevant to this convo (the equate EQ) the big six is definitely not helpful for me. |
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Post by andtide on Sept 30, 2024 11:25:53 GMT -6
But as I look at the DDA sleeping here, it is built like a Behringer! Sorry my friend, but the P&G’s on my 16 buss / line I/o modules and the the top of the line ALPS on my mic input modules are weeping! I'm sorry Eric and this is more of a reflection on me in the past (so read on) as opposed to anyone else but it seems like there's a bit of cork sniffing going on. The SSL has fully balanced I/O, +27dBu headroom, 0.0015% THD, low crosstalk, converters that are better than my old 1248 / 16A combo and it doesn't sound like a bland interface like some boards (or even LFAC's) do so why in any way should it be any sort of limiting factor? Even if it is built like a B? I could never blame this board for any sort of imbalance with my mixes or recordings. Then again I couldn't blame the mid range MOTU interfaces either..
At one point due to circumstances (as I didn't really need a company car anymore) I looked into selling it and buying a proper console, fortunately I didn't due to heavy medical bills and other stuff that was to come in the future but at the time it was 100% on the cards. Back then I had a Big Six and when it came down to it the justification inside a project / home studio was none existent although I didn't stop due to some weird compulsion to spend more to get "results" (if I was tracking bands all together constantly etc. then I'd reconsider the console thing but it's too rare and there's other ways around it). Anyway, some desks sounded different but better? Well, hmm, maybe? No? Sort of?.. Although in my specific circumstances it's a bit different because I already had quite a bit of HW, like API, SH, IAA mic amps and a mass selection of outboard compressors. So, it's a bit of an unfair comparison when you're already running $3K's worth of HW per channel. Including the board and channels 1-4 alone we're at what $15K?
If it's a matter of reliability then I'm lost here because price has never factored into it IME, I've had to repair the overly complex dual SMB's in the Shelford twice which isn't exactly cheap, some hand wired $4K each units also failed in the first six months and I mean the only two things I've never had to touch in the space of a decade (even for tubes, calibrations or general small things) is my Engl Retrotube and any Dynaudio's. What it's about for me is customer service service, take Mojave for example I'll never stop singing their praises after I knocked over an out of warranty mic I owned and they helped me out for nothing. Didn't have to, I in no way expected it but they did and hey they probably knew that I'd be telling everyone how amazing they are.
If this board breaks which IME they all do at some point, it just depends how they cheaped out or what their service intervals are and if SSL aren't willing to help then I'd probably just never bother with them again and use an audio interface with a CUE FX DSP mixer plus a DAW with ping facilities for the HW. Then again that also depends on if I need parts or if it's something simple like a cap replacement, I might not end up contacting them so it's neither here nor there.
I make a point to not by any SMD. Not because of sonics, but because of what you mention- serviceability. While SMD can be serviced its way more costly to diagnose and service. As the owner of a LOT of SSL kit... When I buy SSL I know that in the future - they won't have my back when it comes to service, repair, and designing kit that is made to be serviced. |
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Post by Shadowk on Sept 30, 2024 12:43:36 GMT -6
@antide I’m not disputing anything your saying. As a routing matrix with a decent bus comp it just does the job for the moment. What myself and Eric are talking about is the sheer lack of options in this market plus the reflection it brings and I don’t count Yammie, Mackie, A&H or Toft from the flows to be on the same level.
Now the Audient ASP is a different matter but there’s a sizeable cost difference with a lot of non hybrid waste. I tried the HE version and TBF it’s a good sounding board, I preferred the Duality but cost again. The only really feasible boards in my options list were the Speck Lilo which is now EOL, the GSR-24 which went EOL because it was underpriced. That’s an odd situation in this industry but an extensively flexible 24 channel, automated, decent sounding board for under $7k here was pretty crazy. I just wish they’d charged more, at even double the price it’s still a steal.
Ultimately though in terms of workflow I never find any HW eq’s flexible enough for a mix. For my dream board they’d have 16 channels of RND or IAA style inductor EQ’s as 3 channel for broad stroke spice. 4 actually useful preamps with comp like the IAA 622, then inputs/ inserts on every channel including the master. A hi-z on c1 can come in handy.
I’d also have 4 aux channels, 2 cue, 3 stereo FX.. in short I really just want a custom IAA hybrid console. One day if money permits I’ll get one and sell off most of my existing rack equipment.
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Post by andtide on Oct 1, 2024 12:53:59 GMT -6
@antide I’m not disputing anything your saying. As a routing matrix with a decent bus comp it just does the job for the moment. What myself and Eric are talking about is the sheer lack of options in this market plus the reflection it brings and I don’t count Yammie, Mackie, A&H or Toft from the flows to be on the same level. Now the Audient ASP is a different matter but there’s a sizeable cost difference with a lot of non hybrid waste. I tried the HE version and TBF it’s a good sounding board, I preferred the Duality but cost again. The only really feasible boards in my options list were the Speck Lilo which is now EOL, the GSR-24 which went EOL because it was underpriced. That’s an odd situation in this industry but an extensively flexible 24 channel, automated, decent sounding board for under $7k here was pretty crazy. I just wish they’d charged more, at even double the price it’s still a steal. Ultimately though in terms of workflow I never find any HW eq’s flexible enough for a mix. For my dream board they’d have 16 channels of RND or IAA style inductor EQ’s as 3 channel for broad stroke spice. 4 actually useful preamps with comp like the IAA 622, then inputs/ inserts on every channel including the master. A hi-z on c1 can come in handy. I’d also have 4 aux channels, 2 cue, 3 stereo FX.. in short I really just want a custom IAA hybrid console. One day if money permits I’ll get one and sell off most of my existing rack equipment. As an update to my previous post on the matter- I will NOT be grabbing an Audient. Not because of the quality of their kit (GREAT workflow!!!).. but more so to better achieve my overall strategic objective which is to avoid obsolescence and invest in gear with high serviceability- for MY workflow. For me, anything less than 24 EQs and dynamics just doesn't work for 'my' workflow.. I will say as far as hardware EQ... its a fair hypothesis that most of them only achieve what most call 'broad strokes'. But there are plenty EQs out there with insane flexibility that would go toe to toe with DAW EQ, for most practical applications (practicality being subjective of course  ). I'll note that in the analog realm I can, very quickly, use often times multiple EQs cascaded to give me that insane flexibility (and I'd daresay even more!). Its weird to say some of the craziest boat anchors (Neve/SSL digital consoles... I had some of those anchors!) were pretty crazy. Not bad in my experience! For those that know of the cost of those consoles back in the day you know why my goal in life now is to minimize of reliance on digital gear to a 'DAW as a tape machine+corrective-tooling' approach hahahahah. I'm sure the SiX is great for some folks. I saw a dude on youtube with the other little mixer from SSL (the older one) and a SICK hybrid set up. Looks like it worked awesomely for his flow. |
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Post by baxter on Oct 26, 2024 16:38:19 GMT -6
First post on here, and mostly to say thanks for commenting on the Toft Equate. It's been out for ages, but it has been impossible to find any reports on it.
I'm obsessed with the 80b EQ for obscure reasons (I love the sound of records that came out of Sawmills studio and they have an 80b). I got into it with the 80b plugin, then have ended up buying various Toft units (e.g. the ATC), the 500 series reissue, the S&M 500 series clone and, most recently, a Trident VFM desk. The Equate seemed like a good option, but the annoyance is that the high and low shelves aren't switchable like the real thing. The very, very best thing about the 80b EQ is the 12 kHz high shelf which is just pure silk - nothing else is like it on acoustic guitars IMO. That's not on the Equate and the reports here of build quality issues put me off even further. The 500 series is definitely the way to go for the best reproduction (albeit its not the cheapest option). The plugin is also very good and only $29 at the moment, but that high shelf doesn't quite have the silk of the 500 series.
The VFM was a recent bargain (though shipping to Australia more than doubled it ;-) ). It's surprisingly good considering reports online of its cloudy group outputs (I either lucked into an upgraded one, or simply love the character of it!).
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Post by baxter on Oct 26, 2024 18:09:56 GMT -6
The SSL big six has been really tempting, but I've resisted so far. Is there any truth to the rumour that an even bigger one is coming?
I have the SSL Six 500 strip, and I never use the EQ because it's too limited (I have an E series 500 EQ instead to go with it). The compressor is pretty good though. To give a comparison, I got a Soundcraft Sapphyre for about USD$250 a year back, had that repaired for another $250 (power supply issues), then the Antelope interface to go with it was a lot, then the cabling to deal with ancient EDAC sockets was twice as much as the desk, plus maintenance will be a reasonable sum going forward. Compared to that, the Big Six is extremely good value as a mix hub even if its more limited.
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). 
