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Post by antbar on Sept 27, 2024 11:18:54 GMT -6
I'm working from home, with two studios. One upstairs in a converted office, the other in a converted basement. Neither room is professionally treated, but both rooms have a pleasing "sound" thanks to loads of foam and felt, with the basement having a low, acoustic-tiled ceiling and concrete floor. In the office, I'm doing mostly vocals and synths and mixing. Vocal mic is a Roswell K87, which suits my voice well. The mic runs into a CL7602 MK II, then into a dbx160XT. I have an SE isolation filter thingy, and I'm getting a reliable and clean vocal sound.
Downstairs, the space has a similar "thanks, Amazon" treatment and I'm using the same SE isolation filter, but with a Roswell K67 this time. This Roswell is running into a Presonus Eureka strip. I don't tend to do vocals downstairs as much as I do upstairs, partly cos my upstairs room is better for quick and/or detailed work. Downstairs I do grunty tracking - electric and acoustic guitars, drums and piano etc. It's a good-sounding room. I had my Grammy-winner engineer pal check it out and he agreed. I think it'd be a better space for a sensitive 87.
Anyway, I'm soon selling my dad's house and will have a little bit of cash from that to upgrade. The idea of ending up with a nice U87 is pleasing, of course. My voice is a variable instrument. Most of my income lately has been as a vocalist-for-hire, but that's with people who dig my nasal early Bowie/thin Lennon/kinda Dylan sound. My voice can vary so much from song to song. I've always had great luck with the U87 - it's forgiving of my weaknesses and flatters my strengths. Something like a 414, other hand, which was the first studio mic I ever sang through, brings out the nasal blah in me.
With all that said, I'd love some tips towards either landing a U87... or not! I think I'll have to go second-hand, with that leaving a little bit of money for a channel strip upgrade.
By the way, I've been in touch with Klaus Heyne regarding mics. I don't know that I could afford one of his mods, but a boy can dream... Here's what he said of two tracks I sent him, one recorded with the Roswell K67 and one with a U87, both from the same album...
"I cannot hear much difference in the U87 vocal sound compared to the earlier song you shared, except it's a bit smoother and more detailed." Not sure that's helpful, though it's complimentary to the Roswell, certainly!
Sorry for the long ramble, but I figure more info up front might be helpful.
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Post by smashlord on Sept 27, 2024 11:28:04 GMT -6
If you are looking specifically for a U87, you may know this, but there is a difference between the U87 and U87ai (there is also a model in between). The early ones had less headroom, but many feel it's a smoother tone. If looking at a U87ai, the preferred ones are the ones without the daughter board. The last several revisions up to the current production (4-6, I think) use the FET, like the original incarnation.
That said, if you are looking at it specifically for vocals and don't need the extra patterns or HPF, I would STRONGLY suggest looking at a Soyuz 017 FET. I've had them side by side many times, and while they are more similar than different (similar capsule heritage), the vocalist and I have chosen the Soyuz each time. It has a similar sound, but without the upper midrange honk.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 11:35:00 GMT -6
FWIW we’ve got roughly similar voice ranges then. And I “think the World” of Klaus. Yet… IMHO get Thee a Beesneez BU67 MKII and you won’t look back!  * 4 useful voicings! Chris *Until you just need “one more” mic.  LOL! |
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Post by antbar on Sept 27, 2024 11:42:06 GMT -6
If you are looking specifically for a U87, you may know this, but there is a difference between the U87 and U87ai (there is also a model in between). The early ones had less headroom, but many feel it's a smoother tone. If looking at a U87ai, the preferred ones are the ones without the daughter board. The last several revisions up to the current production (4-6, I think) use the FET, like the original incarnation. That said, if you are looking at it specifically for vocals and don't need the extra patterns or HPF, I would STRONGLY suggest looking at a Soyuz 017 FET. I've had them side by side many times, and while they are more similar than different (similar capsule heritage), the vocalist and I have chosen the Soyuz each time. It has a similar sound, but without the upper midrange honk. I don't know so much about the different U87 versions, so thanks for this. Often I feel in over my head and swamped by "Only an old one!" or "It has to have the Klaus mod" etc. I do kinda think I'd like to have the options of the 87. Patterns and HPF, as the Roswells have neither. Back before I was mainly home recording, there was an amazing U67 at my fav studio. Over the course of album sessions, we'd try everything out per song on the vocal... lo cut on, lo cut off, singing feet away in omni etc. A great way of really tuning to what the song needed, and those options affected my performance as well. My home recording scenario lacks that performance aspect. I sit singing in an office chair these days! Still, I'll give the Soyuz a look. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 11:43:52 GMT -6
If you are looking specifically for a U87, you may know this, but there is a difference between the U87 and U87ai (there is also a model in between). The early ones had less headroom, but many feel it's a smoother tone. If looking at a U87ai, the preferred ones are the ones without the daughter board. The last several revisions up to the current production (4-6, I think) use the FET, like the original incarnation. That said, if you are looking at it specifically for vocals and don't need the extra patterns or HPF, I would STRONGLY suggest looking at a Soyuz 017 FET. I've had them side by side many times, and while they are more similar than different (similar capsule heritage), the vocalist and I have chosen the Soyuz each time. It has a similar sound, but without the upper midrange honk. What’s weird (in a good way) is that… On my BZ Elly Studio, a number of people said it sounds similar to a Vintage 87 on me. Speaking/Singing. Ben’s larger Elly version, does sound larger but picks up more “Room”. And more “Open”. But for lesser Rooms and/or Travel it’s great! Chris P.S. High respect for Soyuz too. As a Senior on a budget though.., Ben’s line is the Bees Knees. |
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Post by antbar on Sept 27, 2024 11:44:32 GMT -6
FWIW we’ve got roughly similar voice ranges then. And I “think the World” of Klaus. Yet… IMHO get Thee a Beesneez BU67 MKII and you won’t look back! * 4 useful voicings! Chris *Until you just need “one more” mic. LOL! I didn't even want to mention the Beezneez!! But I knew someone would bring it up. There are SO many "not U87s" out there, but the BU67 is the one that comes up - with much love - so much of the time! |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 11:49:50 GMT -6
If you are looking specifically for a U87, you may know this, but there is a difference between the U87 and U87ai (there is also a model in between). The early ones had less headroom, but many feel it's a smoother tone. If looking at a U87ai, the preferred ones are the ones without the daughter board. The last several revisions up to the current production (4-6, I think) use the FET, like the original incarnation. That said, if you are looking at it specifically for vocals and don't need the extra patterns or HPF, I would STRONGLY suggest looking at a Soyuz 017 FET. I've had them side by side many times, and while they are more similar than different (similar capsule heritage), the vocalist and I have chosen the Soyuz each time. It has a similar sound, but without the upper midrange honk. I don't know so much about the different U87 versions, so thanks for this. Often I feel in over my head and swamped by "Only an old one!" or "It has to have the Klaus mod" etc. I do kinda think I'd like to have the options of the 87. Patterns and HPF, as the Roswells have neither. Back before I was mainly home recording, there was an amazing U67 at my fav studio. Over the course of album sessions, we'd try everything out per song on the vocal... lo cut on, lo cut off, singing feet away in omni etc. A great way of really tuning to what the song needed, and those options affected my performance as well. My home recording scenario lacks that performance aspect. I sit singing in an office chair these days! Still, I'll give the Soyuz a look. BTW I slid back to sloppy Singing Habits, gradually after being with a Vocal Master for around a year and a half. Over 30 years ago.[ br]Eliminated the Nasal lately, by following Michael Trimble’s teachings recently. Singing the best ever now! And if I want the Nasal choice, it’s a conscious option. Trimble is hilarious when he demonstrates “Character” and/or “false” tonalities. But he’s 86 so go download his YouTube Videos! (I sure am) Chris P.S. I was with Maestro Pelayo in my early 30’s. He taught Placido Domingo when he was 13! |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 11:52:46 GMT -6
I don't know so much about the different U87 versions, so thanks for this. Often I feel in over my head and swamped by "Only an old one!" or "It has to have the Klaus mod" etc. I do kinda think I'd like to have the options of the 87. Patterns and HPF, as the Roswells have neither. Back before I was mainly home recording, there was an amazing U67 at my fav studio. Over the course of album sessions, we'd try everything out per song on the vocal... lo cut on, lo cut off, singing feet away in omni etc. A great way of really tuning to what the song needed, and those options affected my performance as well. My home recording scenario lacks that performance aspect. I sit singing in an office chair these days! Still, I'll give the Soyuz a look. BTW I slid back to sloppy Singing Habits, gradually after being with a Vocal Master for around a year and a half. Eliminated the Nasal lately, by following Michael Trimble’s teachings recently. Singing the best ever now! And if I want the Nasal choice, it’s a conscious option. Trimble is hilarious when he demonstrates “Character” and/or “false” tonalities. But he’s 86 so go download his YouTube Videos! (I sure am) Chris P.S. I was with Maestro Pelayo in my early 30’s. He taught Placido Domingo when he was 13! |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 11:56:40 GMT -6
FWIW we’ve got roughly similar voice ranges then. And I “think the World” of Klaus. Yet… IMHO get Thee a Beesneez BU67 MKII and you won’t look back! * 4 useful voicings! Chris *Until you just need “one more” mic. LOL! I didn't even want to mention the Beezneez!! But I knew someone would bring it up. There are SO many "not U87s" out there, but the BU67 is the one that comes up - with much love - so much of the time! I’ve got the MKI with OG 67/269 voicings. Turned out the OG 67 is a great all rounder. And Killer on Ballads. Eventually Ben’s C12 or 251 Version is on the Chessparov Radar. |
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Post by antbar on Sept 27, 2024 12:01:19 GMT -6
BTW I slid back to sloppy Singing Habits, gradually after being with a Vocal Master for around a year and a half. Eliminated the Nasal lately, by following Michael Trimble’s teachings recently. Singing the best ever now! And if I want the Nasal choice, it’s a conscious option. Trimble is hilarious when he demonstrates “Character” and/or “false” tonalities. But he’s 86 so go download his YouTube Videos! (I sure am) Chris P.S. I was with Maestro Pelayo in my early 30’s. He taught Placido Domingo when he was 13! This kinda relates to the lessons thread as well, but when I moved to Alameda, CA for a while, living in my grandmother's converted garage, Bowie became my invisible vocal coach. That garage was soundproof, turns out, and for the first time in my life, self-conscious me could belt it out with nobody hearing me. I drove back to my dad's house one weekend, grabbed up all my Bowie CDs and started doing daily singalongs. One thing I didn't get from those "lessons" and the thing I don't have in my home recordings, is that low end. Not consistently, anyway. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 12:12:30 GMT -6
Buddy Holly was “my Bowie”. At around 19. Didn’t sing his stuff in Public, for 8 or 10 years. Voice was so similar. Irony was my Late Wife was born/raised in Big Spring, Texas. Relatively near Lubbock (and Wink/ Orbison’s area). So… That’s my default “Country” accent. Chris P.S. All singers mentioned here/all great Pop Singers! |
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 27, 2024 12:19:48 GMT -6
It’s not clear to me why you think a u87 is the one.
If you have a little fun money, what about renting some studio time with a nice mike locker and trying a variety of mikes?
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Post by Ward on Sept 27, 2024 12:32:09 GMT -6
An 87 will always work, and always retain its value or even accrue value. So just get an 87. If you have some money, get a really good vintage U87. There are a couple of sellers on here that have a few extras. Otherwise, you have three stellar options: 1. BeesNees BU87c is fantastic and MUCH less money. Ridiculously cheap, and mics is our friend. 2. Serrano 87 is also ridiculously awesome and cheap, and has all three patterns and cserrano is our friend 3. chessparov was selling his Soundelux U195 which is pretty much a dead ringer for an 87. Wouldn't hurt to ask. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 12:40:07 GMT -6
Thanks Ward! But decided to keep my U195. Even though mine is mint… Nowadays I’m more circumspect buying used BTW. Unless it’s like someone in the “known” ecosystem here. A local best friend for example, bought a Vintage 87 (years ago) for $1800. Unfortunately, he found out years later that the 87 had been Modded. Around 2 years ago it was appraised at $1800 “as is”. Needed about $1500 to reverse it to Normal. Luckily for my Friend, it does suit his voice very well. But definitely NOT quite at Klaus Heyne sonic level! Chris |
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Post by antbar on Sept 27, 2024 12:48:07 GMT -6
It’s not clear to me why you think a u87 is the one. If you have a little fun money, what about renting some studio time with a nice mike locker and trying a variety of mikes? While my home studio situation is populated with $500 mics, I've had the fortune to work with many classics in many studios. U87/67/47 amongst. I almost named one album after the U67 we had access to at the time, as it was a holy grail microphone, and it's been a dream mic since. But I've also sung through U67s that didn't come close to that one. Old or new, Klaus-modded or not, I've always had nothing but good results from a U87. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 13:00:37 GMT -6
The 67 that Justin Hayward used on the Moodies “Classic 7” Albums… Is like that “Dolly of 251’s”. Chris |
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Post by antbar on Sept 27, 2024 13:01:39 GMT -6
An 87 will always work, and always retain its value or even accrue value. So just get an 87. If you have some money, get a really good vintage U87. There are a couple of sellers on here that have a few extras. Otherwise, you have three stellar options: 1. BeesNees BU87c is fantastic and MUCH less money. Ridiculously cheap, and mics is our friend. 2. Serrano 87 is also ridiculously awesome and cheap, and has all three patterns and cserrano is our friend 3. chessparov was selling his Soundelux U195 which is pretty much a dead ringer for an 87. Wouldn't hurt to ask. That's it, right? An 87 will always work. A mate of mine up the hill has a modest studio, cobbled together with all sorts of gear. His drum kit is... Remo, I think. Teenage me would recoil in horror at the thought, but whatever cheap brand it is, it sounds great. I mean, it only does one thing - it's not a versatile kit, but for rock, it ROCKS. The mixing desk is also something he's clearly had forever. I think he runs Sound Forge? Like, a primitive version, too. He bought a new U87, though... "Sometimes you have to stop fucking around and get it right." As a synth guy, having a Prophet 5 is that for me. All that aside, I'm still open to other mics besides the 87. My Grammy guy swears by the Warm 251. He's no fan of Warm mics otherwise, but that one works for him. Another Grammy guy insists the AT 4047 is the one I should try. I can't win for options! |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 13:04:43 GMT -6
4047 sounded a bit “Wooly” on me. But not a Mammoth amount! Hit me Drummer. Sorry but the Warm 251 seemed Anemic to me. Beesneez and Heiserman in comparison? No comparison. If you QC the heck out of a 3U Capsule (theoretically) like Warm, you can get high quality results. But Warm ain’t David Bock! They tend to rely on their good Customer Service instead. Chris |
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Post by antbar on Sept 27, 2024 13:04:59 GMT -6
The 67 that Justin Hayward used on the Moodies “Classic 7” Albums… Is like that “Dolly of 251’s”. Chris That is indeed THE 67 we had access to for a few years! Mike Pinder lived not far up the hill and somehow that mic made it down to the studio. And when it was finally returned, the U67 replacement we tried was a flop. A Telefunken 251 was next and all was good in the world again! (The studio was Enharmonik, which became the Hangar. It was the publishing home of Tape Op magazine, hence the access to so much amazing gear.) |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 13:12:33 GMT -6
Wow!!
That’s the Bardot of mics!
Nerd side note…
Real Original Telefunken 251?
Or later T-Funk?
I thought the early Generation of T-Funks were better.
When they had more actual Vintage parts.
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Post by andersmv on Sept 27, 2024 13:28:22 GMT -6
I’ll throw in one more curveball consideration. Gefell UM70 (new ones are UMT as they’re transformerless) has an authentic M7 capsule, but simpler circuit and is a great “do it all” mic. More neutral in the mid range than most Neumanns, a nice little bump in the high frequencies and a gentle proximity effect (which makes closer mic’ing great). A lot cheaper as well, worth a thought.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 27, 2024 13:33:56 GMT -6
Yep, the UMT70 is definitely tailored towards closer working distance.......which is the modern world! I like mine more and more, had it 25+ years now.
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Post by ericn on Sept 27, 2024 13:40:54 GMT -6
I’ll throw in one more curveball consideration. Gefell UM70 (new ones are UMT as they’re transformerless) has an authentic M7 capsule, but simpler circuit and is a great “do it all” mic. More neutral in the mid range than most Neumanns, a nice little bump in the high frequencies and a gentle proximity effect (which makes closer mic’ing great). A lot cheaper as well, worth a thought. Matt beat me to it, of course I did sell his mentor 3 Gefell’s so I will still take credit for it 😁 Seriously with a handful of decent 87 clones out there you don’t need to have Neumann gon the mic, find a good dealer who will work with you. The other option is to contact either Ben @ Beesneez or Chad a Signal Arts and see what they can dial up just for you. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 27, 2024 14:00:44 GMT -6
Yep. And ask Chad what he thinks of the stock Warm 67. Gene Michael Hall “knew” their 47jr. was wrong for my usual Voice. First listen! |
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Post by andersmv on Sept 27, 2024 14:11:59 GMT -6
I’ll throw in one more curveball consideration. Gefell UM70 (new ones are UMT as they’re transformerless) has an authentic M7 capsule, but simpler circuit and is a great “do it all” mic. More neutral in the mid range than most Neumanns, a nice little bump in the high frequencies and a gentle proximity effect (which makes closer mic’ing great). A lot cheaper as well, worth a thought. Matt beat me to it, of course I did sell his mentor 3 Gefell’s so I will still take credit for it 😁 Seriously with a handful of decent 87 clones out there you don’t need to have Neumann gon the mic, find a good dealer who will work with you. The other option is to contact either Ben @ Beesneez or Chad a Signal Arts and see what they can dial up just for you. I've got two of those mics headed this way right now. |
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