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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 27, 2024 17:54:09 GMT -6
Where's the next Nirvana when you need it?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 27, 2024 19:48:14 GMT -6
We were talking about the economic impact of huge tours the other day, the consensus was that Beyence had a bigger impact for one silly but important reason, Queen B’s fans tipped really well, Swifties not so much.
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Post by damoongo on Oct 27, 2024 20:23:12 GMT -6
Where's the next Nirvana when you need it? Just the other day, I asked chat GPT if Taylor Swift lip-syncs and it went on a diatribe about how she's known for being a great live singer and it seemed outraged that I even suggested it. When I gave it some supporting evidence showing that it's true, it got super defensive on her behalf and said she uses prerecorded tracks to preserve her voice and to free her up to be able to focus on difficult dance routines. Like that makes it fine or something... (Sorry to make it about ai again...) |
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Post by bgrotto on Oct 27, 2024 20:31:39 GMT -6
I think the folks paying to see Taylor don't really care if she's singing 'for real' so much as they want to see a great show. To that end, her job IMHO is to put on a consistent show every night period, not to be a 'great singer'. I mean, who goes to see a pop show in 2024 and believes they're actually hearing a *live* performance?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 27, 2024 20:41:06 GMT -6
I think the folks paying to see Taylor don't really care if she's singing 'for real' so much as they want to see a great show. To that end, her job IMHO is to put on a consistent show every night period, not to be a 'great singer'. I mean, who goes to see a pop show in 2024 and believes they're actually hearing a *live* performance? A show like Taylor, Madonna or Beyoncé is going to use backing tracks. Singing with that kind of dance routine is going to be disappointing. I agree nobody goes to these shows to “ hear” them they go to “see” them. |
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Post by andersmv on Oct 27, 2024 20:41:42 GMT -6
I watched this earlier today because a few people texted it to me asking about it. Welcome to stadium tours folks… I admire a lot of these peoples attention to detail in trying to make points like this. It was a clever idea to take a look at it from a pitch correction perspective, but there’s just so many other variables to consider by simply concluding “Taylor Swift is lip syncing” (which he address some of those at the very end of the video).
First off, every single freaking band at this level is playing on the grid and has stems supporting them. The one big issue I took with that video was that he’s saying it’s impossible for this to happen the exact same way down to the millisecond every show. They’re all like that, they’re all playing and singing to the same session every night because every single video/lighting/pyro thing has to sync up exactly every night. It’s a modern stadium tour, no surprises here…
For all I know, the one section he’s going over in the video is a spot where theres a main (or a few) vocal stems being pushed up in the mix. We could very well be hearing a section of the song where the stems are pushed up in the mix and that’s what we’re hearing. At that point, I guess we have to start having a semantical debate about the morality of stems/backing tracks and if singing along to those still constitutes “lip syncing”.
Another consideration is if what we’re hearing playing back on the YouTube videos is the mix that the crowd heard at the concert. What if Taylor’s vocal mic was being mixed hot through the PA at the show for the crowd, but for the video release (or even sometimes live streamed concert) they decided to burry the live vocal mic in the mix and push up the stems/backing tracks? It’s common practice, happens all the time… I even assisted for two sessions once where a big artist was about to release a live DVD and was coming in to do some corrections and vocal overdubs for the DVD. They were “au natural” and singing/playing for real during the show that night, but we fixed a few flubs in post. I’ve got no skin in the game at this point, you tell me if we should jump up their ass for “miming” or whatever…
I’ve worked security at a Taylor Swift concert at a huge venue, I was right under the mains on the side of the stage for most of the night. There were plenty of flubs and mess ups on her end during the night. I’m not saying that to be an asshole, I thought she did great. I can tell you objectively as a “professional” (😂) that’s been at one of her concerts, there are shows where she’s actually singing and it’s mixed that way for the crowd that night. That was around 2015 probably, so maybe things have changed since then. At the very most, all this video proves is that not everything you hear at shows of this size is “real”. I’m not going to sit here and be a Swiftie Apologist by any means, but I do think this kind of video is a bit disingenuous and unfair at face value. It’s definitely not proof by any means that Taylor Swift is miming her shows and it’s not some Milli Vanilli-esque scandal. Again, welcome to modern stadium tours. This is nothing new or earth shattering…
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Post by bgrotto on Oct 27, 2024 21:29:04 GMT -6
I watched this earlier today because a few people texted it to me asking about it. Welcome to stadium tours folks… I admire a lot of these peoples attention to detail in trying to make points like this. It was a clever idea to take a look at it from a pitch correction perspective, but there’s just so many other variables to consider by simply concluding “Taylor Swift is lip syncing” (which he address some of those at the very end of the video). First off, every single freaking band at this level is playing on the grid and has stems supporting them. The one big issue I took with that video was that he’s saying it’s impossible for this to happen the exact same way down to the millisecond every show. They’re all like that, they’re all playing and singing to the same session every night because every single video/lighting/pyro thing has to sync up exactly every night. It’s a modern stadium tour, no surprises here… For all I know, the one section he’s going over in the video is a spot where theres a main (or a few) vocal stems being pushed up in the mix. We could very well be hearing a section of the song where the stems are pushed up in the mix and that’s what we’re hearing. At that point, I guess we have to start having a semantical debate about the morality of stems/backing tracks and if singing along to those still constitutes “lip syncing”. Another consideration is if what we’re hearing playing back on the YouTube videos is the mix that the crowd heard at the concert. What if Taylor’s vocal mic was being mixed hot through the PA at the show for the crowd, but for the video release (or even sometimes live streamed concert) they decided to burry the live vocal mic in the mix and push up the stems/backing tracks? It’s common practice, happens all the time… I even assisted for two sessions once where a big artist was about to release a live DVD and was coming in to do some corrections and vocal overdubs for the DVD. They were “au natural” and singing/playing for real during the show that night, but we fixed a few flubs in post. I’ve got no skin in the game at this point, you tell me if we should jump up their ass for “miming” or whatever… I’ve worked security at a Taylor Swift concert at a huge venue, I was right under the mains on the side of the stage for most of the night. There were plenty of flubs and mess ups on her end during the night. I’m not saying that to be an asshole, I thought she did great. I can tell you objectively as a “professional” (😂) that’s been at one of her concerts, there are shows where she’s actually singing and it’s mixed that way for the crowd that night. That was around 2015 probably, so maybe things have changed since then. At the very most, all this video proves is that not everything you hear at shows of this size is “real”. I’m not going to sit here and be a Swiftie Apologist by any means, but I do think this kind of video is a bit disingenuous and unfair at face value. It’s definitely not proof by any means that Taylor Swift is miming her shows and it’s not some Milli Vanilli-esque scandal. Again, welcome to modern stadium tours. This is nothing new or earth shattering… I mean...even the freakin' Stones have backing tracks. It's de rigueur at this point, and not even at that 'arena' level. Local bands are using them like crazy. We just did a live video thing for a local band at my studio that used them; the bands make no apologies about it. It's not like they're trying to hide it, because the audience (talking Gen Z kids here) all know it's happening and don't give a damn. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 27, 2024 21:58:24 GMT -6
I'm over 60 and I don't give a damn. How do I get back the 15 minutes of my life wasted on this thread.  |
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Post by damoongo on Oct 27, 2024 22:42:40 GMT -6
I think the folks paying to see Taylor don't really care if she's singing 'for real' so much as they want to see a great show. To that end, her job IMHO is to put on a consistent show every night period, not to be a 'great singer'. I mean, who goes to see a pop show in 2024 and believes they're actually hearing a *live* performance? A show like Taylor, Madonna or Beyoncé is going to use backing tracks. Singing with that kind of dance routine is going to be disappointing. I agree nobody goes to these shows to “ hear” them they go to “see” them. What does it say about us that we want our music for free, but we'll pay $1000 to SEE a singer dance to their songs, while not singing them, because the dancing makes it too difficult to sing...? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 27, 2024 22:56:35 GMT -6
If you’re gonna dance on stage, I’d rather you lip sync than sound like shit…just pop in every once in awhile.
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Post by damoongo on Oct 27, 2024 23:04:12 GMT -6
If you’re gonna dance on stage, I’d rather you lip sync than sound like shit…just pop in every once in awhile. I guess I just don’t end up at any “live” performances where those are the only options |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 27, 2024 23:16:27 GMT -6
If you’re gonna dance on stage, I’d rather you lip sync than sound like shit…just pop in every once in awhile. I guess I just don’t end up at any “live” performances where those are the only options We’ll, me either, but I have seen Mariah on the NYE Special |
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Post by christopher on Oct 28, 2024 0:23:57 GMT -6
Sound guys will do it without the artist permission. They are up there digging into a climax on a pitchy night, their IEM is getting the live feed so they only hear themselves. The mains can be getting the recording from another night. Some egos it’s just better they don’t know. You just swap it in, same mics same preamp gain, sounds exactly the same, undetectable. You build up the reference backing track over gigs and rehearsals, improve it or tune it. Pop it in for moments where you know the artist struggles. We used to just crank the reverb and bury them in wet echo, now they can just cross fade the recording in and out. When this started happening I lost all interest in live sound. It’s all the fake shmoozing none of the musical fun. Just insane money at those big gigs, all that matters people smile and spend money. And the sound guys don’t get much, nowhere close to where the real money is going
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Post by chessparov on Oct 28, 2024 1:12:09 GMT -6
A show like Taylor, Madonna or Beyoncé is going to use backing tracks. Singing with that kind of dance routine is going to be disappointing. I agree nobody goes to these shows to “ hear” them they go to “see” them. What does it say about us that we want our music for free, but we'll pay $1000 to SEE a singer dance to their songs, while not singing them, because the dancing makes it too difficult to sing...? Paging Jackie Wilson. And James Brown. And David Ruffin. And Tina. And...  |
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Post by baxter on Oct 28, 2024 2:10:30 GMT -6
Probably the best arena gig I've seen was Dolly Parton. At one point she had a wig malfunction - she had some sort of microphone in her hair that crapped out. So she had to go backstage and sort it. Her band then did a bar room jam session to a whole arena audience, making it all up on the spot. Dolly came back on and was charming and fabulous, and she was an incredible musician on many instruments.
Most stadium/arena gigs I find to be absolutely pointless - no atmosphere, no view, crap acoustics. But that one was really special.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 28, 2024 2:45:04 GMT -6
I’m too musically swift to be a swifty, don’t think much her “music”, wish she’d drop out, move to Woodstock, rent a crappy big pink house, drop acid and grow a beard: ok, maybe not the beard, not, that there’d be anything wrong with that !
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 28, 2024 2:54:16 GMT -6
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 28, 2024 3:41:27 GMT -6
If you’re gonna dance on stage, I’d rather you lip sync than sound like shit…just pop in every once in awhile. My thoughts exactly. The kids who went - went to be "close" to their hero. If sh'ed walked out and just danced to a Teletubbies backing track they'd of been happy! Her tour is hero worship! Plus of course it's the entertainment business, if it entertains, it entertains. It's humanly impossible to do that much singing night after night, month after month without unhealthy use of steroid injections .... just ask poor old Phil Collins! And for what it's worth I think Taylor Swift has a very good voice and is a good songwriter - I'm sure I'd enjoy working in a studio writing a track with her. |
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Post by chessparov on Oct 28, 2024 11:29:19 GMT -6
She has very nice vocal Tone. And a good Pop songwriter. Having said that… IMHO you have on one end the “Fake Singers” ala Milli Vanilli. Then “Real” Legit Singers like Pavarotti in his prime. Or also Renee Fleming on the other end. Most musical entertainers-ahem-Singers  … Fall somewhere between. The skill to “Carry a Tune” allows me,probably cuts out at least half of the marketed Entertainers today. I learned recently that Caruso knew Jolson and was interested in having them both perform together at The Met!! What do you guys think?
Ironically, NO microphone for Grand Opera.
No microphone either for Milli Vanilla either.
Until they used one and their audience desserted.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 28, 2024 11:38:12 GMT -6
Probably the best arena gig I've seen was Dolly Parton. At one point she had a wig malfunction - she had some sort of microphone in her hair that crapped out. So she had to go backstage and sort it. Her band then did a bar room jam session to a whole arena audience, making it all up on the spot. Dolly came back on and was charming and fabulous, and she was an incredible musician on many instruments. Most stadium/arena gigs I find to be absolutely pointless - no atmosphere, no view, crap acoustics. But that one was really special. Love Dolly! And she’s also cool in that she doesn’t want to be in the semi-fake Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. |
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 28, 2024 11:52:40 GMT -6
Probably the best arena gig I've seen was Dolly Parton. At one point she had a wig malfunction - she had some sort of microphone in her hair that crapped out. So she had to go backstage and sort it. Her band then did a bar room jam session to a whole arena audience, making it all up on the spot. Dolly came back on and was charming and fabulous, and she was an incredible musician on many instruments. Most stadium/arena gigs I find to be absolutely pointless - no atmosphere, no view, crap acoustics. But that one was really special. The only stadium gig I've really loved was Pink Floyd "Momentary Lapse of Reason Tour" 87 -88 Wembley Stadium so about 80,000 fans. They had this huge mirror ball and a powerful super trooper aimed right on it - it filled the stadium with an amazing light effect - to the sound of Gilmour playing Comfortably Numb. The bass was visceral - and the sound of Gilmour's guitar was mind blowing (possibly aided by something I'd earlier rolled - I was young back then I have never forgotten that gig - it was to my mind the definition of Stadium Rock n Roll. |
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Post by chessparov on Oct 28, 2024 12:09:42 GMT -6
The Steel Wheels Stones Tour/‘93 where they blew the… Otherwise excellent Guns and Roses off the Colosseum Stage was great! Hey I’m wearing my Stones’75 Tour shirt today. Chris P.S. I enjoyed Shine A Light too.., |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Oct 28, 2024 12:50:48 GMT -6
First of all, who the "$&%^" cares what she does, really?
This guy has got wayyyyyyyyy tooooo much free time on his hands!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Oct 28, 2024 15:28:34 GMT -6
First of all, who the "$&%^" cares what she does, really? This guy has got wayyyyyyyyy tooooo much free time on his hands! The philosophical answer her Manager, Agent , Tour accountant and of course my old Neighbor 😁 |
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Post by chessparov on Oct 28, 2024 17:12:36 GMT -6
Hey she’s #8 Best Guitarist… Within the last 20 years! Chris |
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