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Axe FX III
Dec 20, 2019 19:32:51 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2019 19:32:51 GMT -6
Just updated from 11.0 to 11.02. And this might be my first negative...I swear everything is brighter now. Cliff said this - “There is no difference in frequency response. The modeling changes only improve the dynamic range. I'd estimate we picked up 3-4 bits of additional resolution on average.”
But I’m not the only one that thinks everything is brighter.
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Axe FX III
Dec 20, 2019 19:40:13 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by svart on Dec 20, 2019 19:40:13 GMT -6
Just updated from 11.0 to 11.02. And this might be my first negative...I swear everything is brighter now. Cliff said this - “There is no difference in frequency response. The modeling changes only improve the dynamic range. I'd estimate we picked up 3-4 bits of additional resolution on average.” But I’m not the only one that thinks everything is brighter. Interesting. I almost upgraded a few minutes ago but didn't. I don't want anything brighter.. is it a lot, or just noticable? |
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Axe FX III
Dec 20, 2019 19:41:00 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by svart on Dec 20, 2019 19:41:00 GMT -6
And wow, 3-4 bits of noise is a lot. A lot lot.
The only times I've heard of those kinds of improvements were when folks found serious bugs..
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Axe FX III
Dec 20, 2019 19:50:24 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2019 19:50:24 GMT -6
Well, I had read a post that the tone had changed - they thought for the better - before I updated. They claimed the bottom was less muddy and the top was more “immediate.” So - maybe it’s a case of confirmation bias on my part. But I find myself either taking the bright switch off or turning down the high treble on pretty much all of them. But then again, maybe I was doing that before. matt have you updated? Just FYI - it’s like a 5% difference. As a smartass on the fractal forum said to me, “just turn the treble down...” |
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Axe FX III
Dec 20, 2019 19:51:13 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2019 19:51:13 GMT -6
Are you digging it?
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Axe FX III
Dec 20, 2019 20:47:23 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by svart on Dec 20, 2019 20:47:23 GMT -6
Well, I had read a post that the tone had changed - they thought for the better - before I updated. They claimed the bottom was less muddy and the top was more “immediate.” So - maybe it’s a case of confirmation bias on my part. But I find myself either taking the bright switch off or turning down the high treble on pretty much all of them. But then again, maybe I was doing that before. matt have you updated? Just FYI - it’s like a 5% difference. As a smartass on the fractal forum said to me, “just turn the treble down...” I do find some of the presets seem a bit too bottom heavy.. but I don't want more brightness in exchange. Do you happen to know if you can downgrade the firmware after you've updated? |
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Post by svart on Dec 20, 2019 20:49:23 GMT -6
Yes. Much yes. I've only really just been flipping through presets and trying different guitars but they all sound "right" to me. You were spot on when you said none of them sound bad. |
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 20, 2019 21:44:02 GMT -6
So, I had the Axe-FX III in my cart ready to pull the trigger. Not 100% sure I should. Took one last look on Reverb, just to see. Came across this: reverb.com/item/30740920-fractal-axe-fx-iiiA guy selling his AX3, with a Kemper in the same photo. I asked him what he thought. "Long story short for me is that the Axe would be a single unit powerhouse that is capable on its own to be all that you need. The Kemper works for me only if I build some pedalboard to go with it to cover its deficiency (for me) in flexibility of wet FX and drives. That said, I have more easily attainable amazing clean and edge of breakup tones available that I love on the Kemper. Such a short path to great tone. So, I'm moving toward just using the Kemper with a sliding tray with a couple of my favorite drives and wets on it. I'll give up a huge amount of FX capabilities for things like chorus, pitch shifting, and beyond. You won't go wrong either way. This weekend, I'm running the Kemper in the Axe Loop, so I get all the amazing wet FX and drive pedals from the Axe and the amps from the Kemper. Also, Axe FX wins on the computer interface program. Its money."So I asked him which had the more realistic amp sounds. "Coin toss on realism depending on what amp you're trying to create. I can make the Matchless Chieftain sound almost the same on both systems, but I got there in 1/10th of the time on the Kemper. The Kemper has more amps on it that I like, and they do feel a touch more real to me than the Axe, possibly because I'm not good enough at dialing in what I'm after on the Axe. There are literally millions of combinations of dials to use on the Axe FX. Tweakers paradise. You'll be happy either way I think. Just get one and resell it if you don't love it. You won't lose much. Thats what I did with the Kemper and it won out for me!"Obviously, opinions are like assholes, but I still find a mixed bag of reviews concerning Axe vs. Kemper. Urgh. I want to get this thing in my hands. My rationale brain is telling me the grass isn't always greener. I know I would get lost in the tweaking. I mean, I'm having this much indecision between TWO choices. Imagine hundreds of choices... |
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Post by dmo on Dec 20, 2019 21:45:31 GMT -6
Svart,
Yes - You can go backwards on firmware if you find you don't like an update. I'd keep a back up file of presets/firmware when I was using live so if an update didn't translate well to my modified presets I could always load the backups for a gig
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Post by dmo on Dec 20, 2019 21:59:33 GMT -6
Indie,
I was a fairly early axe fx adopter as I wanted something I could take on my non combat deployments (usually a 6-9 month gray hull cruise) - so owned since 2011 or so. There were a lot of heated debates between fractal/kemper proponents in the early days, frequently similar to your quote of kemper = easier and fractal = tweakers. IMO there's no right answer - you can only determine "best" for you by hands on. im a newbiehere and my background is live performance (50 years or so) so take my opinion with the proverbial grain of salt, - but other than upgrading from axe 2 to axe 3 I no longer have amp gas (although I still have a few that sit waiting for use if needed)
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Axe FX III
Dec 20, 2019 22:30:56 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2019 22:30:56 GMT -6
So, I had the Axe-FX III in my cart ready to pull the trigger. Not 100% sure I should. Took one last look on Reverb, just to see. Came across this: reverb.com/item/30740920-fractal-axe-fx-iiiA guy selling his AX3, with a Kemper in the same photo. I asked him what he thought. "Long story short for me is that the Axe would be a single unit powerhouse that is capable on its own to be all that you need. The Kemper works for me only if I build some pedalboard to go with it to cover its deficiency (for me) in flexibility of wet FX and drives. That said, I have more easily attainable amazing clean and edge of breakup tones available that I love on the Kemper. Such a short path to great tone. So, I'm moving toward just using the Kemper with a sliding tray with a couple of my favorite drives and wets on it. I'll give up a huge amount of FX capabilities for things like chorus, pitch shifting, and beyond. You won't go wrong either way. This weekend, I'm running the Kemper in the Axe Loop, so I get all the amazing wet FX and drive pedals from the Axe and the amps from the Kemper. Also, Axe FX wins on the computer interface program. Its money."So I asked him which had the more realistic amp sounds. "Coin toss on realism depending on what amp you're trying to create. I can make the Matchless Chieftain sound almost the same on both systems, but I got there in 1/10th of the time on the Kemper. The Kemper has more amps on it that I like, and they do feel a touch more real to me than the Axe, possibly because I'm not good enough at dialing in what I'm after on the Axe. There are literally millions of combinations of dials to use on the Axe FX. Tweakers paradise. You'll be happy either way I think. Just get one and resell it if you don't love it. You won't lose much. Thats what I did with the Kemper and it won out for me!"Obviously, opinions are like assholes, but I still find a mixed bag of reviews concerning Axe vs. Kemper. Urgh. I want to get this thing in my hands. My rationale brain is telling me the grass isn't always greener. I know I would get lost in the tweaking. I mean, I'm having this much indecision between TWO choices. Imagine hundreds of choices... So, you’ve been on this board for what - 7 years - but this one guy (who I now consider to be touched in the head) has trumped all of that? Pull the trigger and see for yourself. There’s a return policy. Btw - I had every Matchless profile made. None of them. I mean none of them sounded like the two in the Axe FX. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 20, 2019 22:34:09 GMT -6
And I just don’t understand the “I got there in 1/10th the time with the Kemper”. Uh. All you have to do is turn on the AFX and select the Boutique preset. It’s done.
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Post by matt on Dec 21, 2019 1:05:29 GMT -6
Well, I had read a post that the tone had changed . . . . I find myself either taking the bright switch off or turning down the high treble on pretty much all of them. But then again, maybe I was doing that before. matt have you updated? Just FYI - it’s like a 5% difference. I've been updating immediately, so I'm on 11.02 beta 2. I haven't noticed any real difference in the high end vs 11.01. I'm finding that the amps need tweaking tone-wise, and what I do depends on the model. I've gravitated to using the "Ideal" preamp tone set on everything, and when I audition an amp sometimes I have to reduce bass, but more often treble and high treble. I start with all tone controls set at 12-o'clock except depth and presence (usually set to zero), and cut/boost to taste. I usually reduce gain too, and some models are greatly affected by the master volume setting. i'm still sifting through all the Marshall types -there's a lot of them- and they tend to be too bright/edgy. But they nearly all have the beautiful Marshall "kerrang", something I've NEVER heard in a modeler and often not even on a real head. Right now I'm using one cabinet IR for this phase of my AF3 odyssey mainly to simplify something in the signal chain. I cut 12 db/octave at 6100 at the IR so that is always in effect. Maybe that's why I don't hear any real difference in the two firmware releases. You've raised the issue of the tone changing after firmware updates, and I'd say it's a legitimate concern. I won't be updating when in the middle of tracking a song, for example. It's the yin/yang of frequent improvements- the sound of the AF3 changes, for the better given Fractal's track record, but it means the presets we built on prior firmware releases may no longer sound exactly as originally created. Something to keep in mind. |
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Post by dmo on Dec 21, 2019 10:26:08 GMT -6
John,
Issues with tone changing with firmware updates have come up from time to time on the fractal forum for years, sometimes most people would hear it, sometimes only a few, occasional internet flame wars would occur. When issue was widespread often would be an update for an error in coding, when only seemed to affect a few sometimes appeared to be correctable by reloading new firmware again with assumption of a glitch during the update. Some updates would affect global parameters so if you set a global EQ or filters they would revert to stock with updates. I've rarely needed to do more than minor changes to regain desired tones, but I also would miss/skip several versions sometimes. If everything post update is super bright I'd check any global parameters and try a firmware reload since that has been reported in the past.
Matt,
Have you tried the Carol Ann's yet? I like the triptik model - instant classic (70s) memories triggered when I play. The Friedman's are also good, although to me sound more "modern". but my take me back to early years amp is the JtM 45 - grab my Anderson for some single coils and instant Jimi tone
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 21, 2019 10:37:46 GMT -6
John, Issues with tone changing with firmware updates have come up from time to time on the fractal forum for years, sometimes most people would hear it, sometimes only a few, occasional internet flame wars would occur. When issue was widespread often would be an update for an error in coding, when only seemed to affect a few sometimes appeared to be correctable by reloading new firmware again with assumption of a glitch during the update. Some updates would affect global parameters so if you set a global EQ or filters they would revert to stock with updates. I've rarely needed to do more than minor changes to regain desired tones, but I also would miss/skip several versions sometimes. If everything post update is super bright I'd check any global parameters and try a firmware reload since that has been reported in the past. Matt, Have you tried the Carol Ann's yet? I like the triptik model - instant classic (70s) memories triggered when I play. The Friedman's are also good, although to me sound more "modern". but my take me back to early years amp is the JtM 45 - grab my Anderson for some single coils and instant Jimi tone So weird. I downgraded to 11.01 to see if I was crazy. Started playing and to my ears, it confirmed what I thought. So then to double check, I went to 11.02 again. Now I don’t hear it as much. I do find I need to tame the top more in 11.02, but maybe that’s just more resolution that I’m hearing. Or maybe the second time updating worked like it was supposed to. Or maybe there was never anything in the first place. matt - the kerrrang is a good way to describe things...I really don’t know how to describe it...but the Kemper doesn’t do it. |
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Post by dmo on Dec 21, 2019 10:48:24 GMT -6
Glad to hear that it seems to be resolved. I don't claim any computer/coding expertise so can't explain it but there are enough reports of a reload working that I wanted to pass along
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Axe FX III
Dec 21, 2019 10:59:07 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ragan on Dec 21, 2019 10:59:07 GMT -6
John, Issues with tone changing with firmware updates have come up from time to time on the fractal forum for years, sometimes most people would hear it, sometimes only a few, occasional internet flame wars would occur. When issue was widespread often would be an update for an error in coding, when only seemed to affect a few sometimes appeared to be correctable by reloading new firmware again with assumption of a glitch during the update. Some updates would affect global parameters so if you set a global EQ or filters they would revert to stock with updates. I've rarely needed to do more than minor changes to regain desired tones, but I also would miss/skip several versions sometimes. If everything post update is super bright I'd check any global parameters and try a firmware reload since that has been reported in the past. Matt, Have you tried the Carol Ann's yet? I like the triptik model - instant classic (70s) memories triggered when I play. The Friedman's are also good, although to me sound more "modern". but my take me back to early years amp is the JtM 45 - grab my Anderson for some single coils and instant Jimi tone So weird. I downgraded to 11.01 to see if I was crazy. Started playing and to my ears, it confirmed what I thought. So then to double check, I went to 11.02 again. Now I don’t hear it as much. I do find I need to tame the top more in 11.02, but maybe that’s just more resolution that I’m hearing. Or maybe the second time updating worked like it was supposed to. Or maybe there was never anything in the first place. matt - the kerrrang is a good way to describe things...I really don’t know how to describe it...but the Kemper doesn’t do it. I know what you mean John. The AxeIII has a kind of upper mids articulation that’s often a bit smeared or flattened on the Kemper. My only seeming gripe with the Axe is there seems to be a sort of commonality to wide ranging tones, and it lives right in that “kerrang” region. But I’ve never played one so I don’t put a lot of stock in that assessment. It’s just something I hear in every sample I’ve heard. Granted, it’s a good ‘sound’ and one that’s often more real/authentic sounding to my ear than many other sims. So even if it did turn out to be systematic of the AxeIII I wouldn’t consider it a non-starter. With all those parameters under the hood it could very well be able to be edited out. Either way it’s clearly a box that’s capable of really nice tones. |
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Post by matt on Dec 21, 2019 11:10:10 GMT -6
Matt, Have you tried the Carol Ann's yet? I like the triptik model . . . my take me back to early years amp is the JtM 45 - grab my Anderson for some single coils and instant Jimi tone Not yet, I'm still wading through all the Marshall-class models. I'll definitely get there though- I'm going to audition everything and build a bunch of "best of" presets. |
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Axe FX III
Dec 21, 2019 11:21:12 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Dec 21, 2019 11:21:12 GMT -6
So weird. I downgraded to 11.01 to see if I was crazy. Started playing and to my ears, it confirmed what I thought. So then to double check, I went to 11.02 again. Now I don’t hear it as much. I do find I need to tame the top more in 11.02, but maybe that’s just more resolution that I’m hearing. Or maybe the second time updating worked like it was supposed to. Or maybe there was never anything in the first place. matt - the kerrrang is a good way to describe things...I really don’t know how to describe it...but the Kemper doesn’t do it. I know what you mean John. The AxeIII has a kind of upper mids articulation that’s often a bit smeared or flattened on the Kemper. My only seeming gripe with the Axe is there seems to be a sort of commonality to wide ranging tones, and it lives right in that “kerrang” region. But I’ve never played one so I don’t put a lot of stock in that assessment. It’s just something I hear in every sample I’ve heard. Granted, it’s a good ‘sound’ and one that’s often more real/authentic sounding to my ear than many other sims. So even if it did turn out to be systematic of the AxeIII I wouldn’t consider it a non-starter. With all those parameters under the hood it could very well be able to be edited out. Either way it’s clearly a box that’s capable of really nice tones. Very well could be. Not sure I have enough experience with a wide range of real amps to make that call...but I played around the other night with looking up different amp examples on YouTube to see how close they were. Ok - well, just a couple. But I was shocked at how close the three different versions of the Princeton’s were and how they mirrored how they broke up. Like the AA964/5F2/Reverb. |
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Post by matt on Dec 21, 2019 11:57:32 GMT -6
matt - the kerrrang is a good way to describe things...I really don’t know how to describe it...but the Kemper doesn’t do it. Yes, it's an elusive quality that is hard to describe, hard to build into an amp, and not built into any modeler I've tried until the AF3. As you say, the Kemper doesn't do it. The Helix doesn't either. It's that mids/upper mids thing, where the amp or modeler responds to pick on string in a certain way: it's often called "chime" for clean and so-called "edge of breakup" tones, and "cut" or "attack" for distorted tones. Stripped of the vague buzz words, I think of it as "definition", where an amp or amp model amplifies the incoming signal in a way that preserves and even creates transients that we as players hear as pleasing- and maybe even inspiring. It's funny, I think I just used the name for a parameter in the Kemper (definition) to describe something I think it lacks. Maybe "clarity" is better, it's a term I've seen used on the Fractal forum. No. On second thought, it's KERRANG. That's it. I'll go play a bit to confirm. Testing the Cali Leggy model this morning with a few UFO riffs. |
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Post by dmo on Dec 21, 2019 12:14:18 GMT -6
Ragan,
You're near Seattle, correct? I live across the sound, we should get together sometime so you can try the III first hand and see what you think
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Post by matt on Dec 21, 2019 12:19:39 GMT -6
there seems to be a sort of commonality to wide ranging tones, and it lives right in that “kerrang” region. . . . Either way it’s clearly a box that’s capable of really nice tones. Yes, I agree with this, I'm starting to feel this way about the AF3. It is emerging to me that it has a characteristic tone at some level. But consider: doesn't ALL hardware have a certain character? In the world of real amps, Fender does, as does Marshall, Friedman, Mesa, etc etc. The Kemper has a certain character. I think the AF3 does too. It all comes down on whether you find this character desirable, or not. Now we've entered that vast, empty void of space-time known as subjectivity (if we ever left it). So, subjectively speaking, the AF3 has a more desirable character for me than the Kemper or the Helix. My opinion starts with the tones it produces, but does not end there. The software, the hardware ergonomics, and particularly the foot switch all add up to make it a superior product for my needs, both live and in the studio. Include the killer, always-on support and development, and the AF3 is a hands-down winner. For me. As always, YMMV. I suggest that those on the fence try, and return, if it doesn't work for them. |
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Post by ragan on Dec 21, 2019 12:32:09 GMT -6
there seems to be a sort of commonality to wide ranging tones, and it lives right in that “kerrang” region. . . . Either way it’s clearly a box that’s capable of really nice tones. Yes, I agree with this, I'm starting to feel this way about the AF3. It is emerging to me that it has a characteristic tone at some level. But consider: doesn't ALL hardware have a certain character? In the world of real amps, Fender does, as does Marshall, Friedman, Mesa, etc etc. The Kemper has a certain character. I think the AF3 does too. It all comes down on whether you find this character desirable, or not. Now we've entered that vast, empty void of space-time known as subjectivity (if we ever left it). So, subjectively speaking, the AF3 has a more desirable character for me than the Kemper or the Helix. My opinion starts with the tones it produces, but does not end there. The software, the hardware ergonomics, and particularly the foot switch all add up to make it a superior product for my needs, both live and in the studio. Include the killer, always-on support and development, and the AF3 is a hands-down winner. For me. As always, YMMV. I suggest that those on the fence try, and return, if it doesn't work for them. Couldn't have said it better. <thumbsup> And I agree, the AF3's characteristic tone is more appealing to me than the Kemper's characteristic tone. I'm sure I'll come to hear the Iridium's characteristic tone too, we'll see. So far the sounds feel pretty distinct from one another. I posted some clips in the Iridium thread if you're interested. I'd love to take an AF3 for a spin someday. |
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Axe FX III
Dec 21, 2019 14:02:48 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by svart on Dec 21, 2019 14:02:48 GMT -6
John, Issues with tone changing with firmware updates have come up from time to time on the fractal forum for years, sometimes most people would hear it, sometimes only a few, occasional internet flame wars would occur. When issue was widespread often would be an update for an error in coding, when only seemed to affect a few sometimes appeared to be correctable by reloading new firmware again with assumption of a glitch during the update. Some updates would affect global parameters so if you set a global EQ or filters they would revert to stock with updates. I've rarely needed to do more than minor changes to regain desired tones, but I also would miss/skip several versions sometimes. If everything post update is super bright I'd check any global parameters and try a firmware reload since that has been reported in the past. Matt, Have you tried the Carol Ann's yet? I like the triptik model - instant classic (70s) memories triggered when I play. The Friedman's are also good, although to me sound more "modern". but my take me back to early years amp is the JtM 45 - grab my Anderson for some single coils and instant Jimi tone So weird. I downgraded to 11.01 to see if I was crazy. Started playing and to my ears, it confirmed what I thought. So then to double check, I went to 11.02 again. Now I don’t hear it as much. I do find I need to tame the top more in 11.02, but maybe that’s just more resolution that I’m hearing. Or maybe the second time updating worked like it was supposed to. Or maybe there was never anything in the first place. matt - the kerrrang is a good way to describe things...I really don’t know how to describe it...but the Kemper doesn’t do it. I just played the Princeton preset (great great sound, just like my buddy's Princeton) and then updated the unit from 11.00 to 11.02. It's absolutely different. Brighter. Maybe less mids too. I think 11.00 had a more "real" presentation of the Princeton that I'm familiar with. In 11.02 I had to turn the amp treble down almost 2dB to get it more like I know it. |
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Post by matt on Dec 21, 2019 14:32:46 GMT -6
So weird. I downgraded to 11.01 to see if I was crazy. Started playing and to my ears, it confirmed what I thought. So then to double check, I went to 11.02 again. Now I don’t hear it as much. I just played the Princeton preset (great great sound, just like my buddy's Princeton) and then updated the unit from 11.00 to 11.02. It's absolutely different. Brighter. I need to get used to the idea that the sound of the AF3 is a moving target. It's not a bad thing, but a thing. And to save my configuration per FW release in case I want to roll back. I don't feel the need now but it's good practice. A good thing about Fractal is they don't appear to be adverse to backing out changes if the sound of the unit drifts in an unintended direction. They seem to be very responsive to user feedback. |
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