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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 22, 2021 16:08:00 GMT -6
Right, best bet is to not take any FDA approved medicine then. đ
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Post by drbill on Apr 22, 2021 19:46:55 GMT -6
Right, best bet is to not take any FDA approved medicine then. đ Or maybe just take what you really NEED to take. Long standing FDA approved meds that have long standing studies that will give you all the pro's and con's. (I've got ONE med that I must take, but I'd be on a half dozen if I blindly followed "helpful advice" from the docs. They suggest Lipitor even though I don't have high cholesterol, BP meds even though my blood pressure is fine. And etc., etc..). My doc is always suggesting I take stuff. And I ask him if I really need it.....and usually he says "uh.....no, but it wouldn't be a bad idea". I tell him I don't like where old folks end up where they are taking a dozen meds that all interact and cause problems. I'm not thrilled about starting down that road. Then he says "yeah, I hear ya".... I know we'll all end up there sooner or later, but I'd like it to be later than sooner. When I'm convinced I'll be lined up for the latest and greatest just like I jumped for the Shingles and Pneumonia Vax's .....
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Post by cyrano on Apr 23, 2021 3:38:22 GMT -6
Docs that don't prescribe don't have many patients...
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Post by LesC on Apr 23, 2021 20:33:15 GMT -6
Docs that don't prescribe don't have many patients... They also won't be paid off by the drug companies.
By changing my diet, I no longer had diabetes so didn't need diabetic medication. I no longer had high blood pressure so I didn't need my blood pressure medication, 3 different pills a day. And I told my endocrinologist that next I wanted to get rid of my statin for cholesterol problems. He said "why would you want to do that?" I said because I wanted to cure the disease instead of treating the symptoms. He is no longer my endocrinologist, and I no longer have cholesterol problems. As an aside, my sleep apnea is also gone. At 68 I'm by far the healthiest I've ever been, with no drugs required. With my luck, I'll soon be run over by a bus.
I got the Pfizer shot 2 weeks ago and had a slightly sore arm for a couple of days. I'm expecting my second shot to be worse.
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Post by cyrano on Apr 25, 2021 9:28:51 GMT -6
That sounds very familiar, Les.
I have two uncles that were taking diabetes medicine for 25 years. One's blind, obese and no longer can walk. The other one abandoned the pills 15 years ago, started eating healthy, exercising, and leading a generally healthy life. He still has diabetes he needs to treat occasionally, but he's not in hospital continually.
Of course, it's just two unrelated people, statistically insignificant.
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Post by svart on Apr 26, 2021 7:04:17 GMT -6
Not sure if vaccine related, but the day after I got the first dose, I started having tightness in my hands that hasn't really subsided yet. It's like when you do a bunch of manual labor with your hands and they're kinda sore the next day. That's how it feels. It makes it hard to type.
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 26, 2021 10:12:15 GMT -6
Not sure if vaccine related, but the day after I got the first dose, I started having tightness in my hands that hasn't really subsided yet. It's like when you do a bunch of manual labor with your hands and they're kinda sore the next day. That's how it feels. It makes it hard to type. Its totally anecdotal, and possibly all in my head, but since I got vaccinated back in January I get very sore after exercising. Itâs sounds stupid right? Youâre supposed to get sore, but this is different. Iâve been consistently working out for years now, nothing has changed from that routine, but now after a good work out it hurts. And not the good kind of hurt Iâm used to. If I work out my arms my entire arm hurts...in a way thatâs not usual. It feels like wide spread inflammation. Ibuprofen or other NSAIDs make it go away. Itâs subtle enough that Iâm not certain itâs anything more than me getting older lol, but strong enough that I canât ignore it. The timing of it is whatâs concerning to me. The inflammation came out of no where, just a few weeks after getting vaccinated. I have a Coworker who is an RN. She had massive inflammation in her eyes, sinuses, face etc since the vaccine. Sheâs had to have to courses of steroids so far but it keeps recurring. Sheâs talked to her Dr and I guess itâs been documented as a rare side effect of the vaccine, I think it was the Moderna shot.
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Post by svart on Apr 26, 2021 10:49:29 GMT -6
Not sure if vaccine related, but the day after I got the first dose, I started having tightness in my hands that hasn't really subsided yet. It's like when you do a bunch of manual labor with your hands and they're kinda sore the next day. That's how it feels. It makes it hard to type. Its totally anecdotal, and possibly all in my head, but since I got vaccinated back in January I get very sore after exercising. Itâs sounds stupid right? Youâre supposed to get sore, but this is different. Iâve been consistently working out for years now, nothing has changed from that routine, but now after a good work out it hurts. And not the good kind of hurt Iâm used to. If I work out my arms my entire arm hurts...in a way thatâs not usual. It feels like wide spread inflammation. Ibuprofen or other NSAIDs make it go away. Itâs subtle enough that Iâm not certain itâs anything more than me getting older lol, but strong enough that I canât ignore it. The timing of it is whatâs concerning to me. The inflammation came out of no where, just a few weeks after getting vaccinated. I have a Coworker who is an RN. She had massive inflammation in her eyes, sinuses, face etc since the vaccine. Sheâs had to have to courses of steroids so far but it keeps recurring. Sheâs talked to her Dr and I guess itâs been documented as a rare side effect of the vaccine, I think it was the Moderna shot. Another anecdotal piece on my part then.. Last year around late February I was strangely sick for about two weeks. Headache, tinnitus, slight fever, lethargy, some intestinal issues, etc. This was before there was any kind of C-19 testing available and folks were being told that C-19 hadn't swept the country yet (turns out it was all over the country at that point) and even then if you were sick, to avoid the hospitals and such unless you couldn't breathe. After this sickness, I had bouts of feeling feverish but not actually having a fever, being extremely tired for about 6 months and I also felt extremely sore after doing workouts that I had previously done routinely. I've since mostly gone back to normal but one week I'll do a workout and feel fine and the next I'll do the exact same workout and be so sore I can barely move. I'd say that I probably had covid based on all the symptoms that we now know can manifest, but I guess I'll never know. I'm thinking my slight overreaction to the first dose of vaccine might have been a clue that my body was already exposed, but I'm only guessing at this point.
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Post by drbill on Apr 26, 2021 11:50:43 GMT -6
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 26, 2021 13:24:23 GMT -6
Advice.. if we're going to talk about science, let's avoid material hosted on random chiropractic practice websites. Two, Vanden Bossche is a veterinarian. And his solution to the "problem" is...his own product. A universal vaccine. Which he apparently promotes from his veterinary practice. So, "cui bono" alarms should be going off. Again - we should have the same level of skepticism for all claims. Actually, we should perhaps be even more skeptical of claims which we are inclined to agree with to attempt to counteract own own bias! So the question becomes - what evidence is there for Dr Vanden Bossche's claims? Anyone? Anything? Here's a nice, thorough response - free of ad hom. www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claimsBrandolini's Law makes the internet a very tiring place.
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Post by drbill on Apr 26, 2021 13:39:04 GMT -6
Two, Vanden Bossche is a veterinarian. Why did he work for The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation then? Is Bill concerned with dog vaccines? Why the media penchant for nuking any opposing views on vaccine long term affects?
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 26, 2021 13:54:35 GMT -6
Look, when you present an argument based on an appeal to authority, it is imperative that the authority is actually an authority. If you'd said, here's a compelling set of facts and evidence, no one would care who published them. But you prefaced this by saying he is a world-renowned vaccine expert. If you said he was a veterinarian, would it carry the same weight? If the answer is no, then you need to be aware that the "who" of the argument has swayed your perception of the "what". This is a logical fallacy. But is he a world-renowned vaccine expert? Board certified in "Veterinary Virology, Microbiology and Animal Hygiene". No publications since 1995. Never published ANY research about vaccines. But he thinks he invented a new type of vaccine. And now he wants to replace the vaccines we have today with something he has a patent in. Which has never been made, or published. The entire basis for the claim is rooted in who this guy is. At some point you have to say - nope, this simply isn't credible. And as far as I know no one has nuked these opposing views. You can still find this one all over the place. Along with dozens of hits point it out as simply wrong.
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Post by drbill on Apr 26, 2021 14:14:21 GMT -6
Look, when you present an argument based on an appeal to authority, it is imperative that the authority is actually an authority. If you'd said, here's a compelling set of facts and evidence, no one would care who published them. But you prefaced this by saying he is a world-renowned vaccine expert. If you said he was a veterinarian, would it carry the same weight? If the answer is no, then you need to be aware that the "who" of the argument has swayed your perception of the "what". This is a logical fallacy. But is he a world-renowned vaccine expert? Board certified in "Veterinary Virology, Microbiology and Animal Hygiene". No publications since 1995. Never published ANY research about vaccines. But he thinks he invented a new type of vaccine. And now he wants to replace the vaccines we have today with something he has a patent in. Which has never been made, or published. The entire basis for the claim is rooted in who this guy is. At some point you have to say - nope, this simply isn't credible. And as far as I know no one has nuked these opposing views. You can still find this one all over the place. Along with dozens of hits point it out as simply wrong. Any idea why he was working for / doing for The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation? I would assume they hired him for a good reason. And for as many places claiming him as "wrong", there are just as many claiming him as "right" - or potentially right - as "right" will not be discovered for quite some time. I have no idea how far you investigated past "veterinarian", but certainly he raises some valid concerns. Hey, me, you, the whole world wants to put this Covid BS behind us. Opposing views are what drives science, politics, and common sense to conventions that take years to distill. To have "one way or the highway" definitely rubs me wrong. [edit] PS - you've at least got to give me props that I actually presented both sides of the discussion, although even the anti discussion author's research said that there were legitimate concerns that Bossche made. I mean, you did read that far didn't' you?
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 26, 2021 15:33:19 GMT -6
Sure, I looked at his LinkedIn profile. Looks like he was a program manager. Operations, partnership. Not a researcher.
He does not raise valid concerns. That's kind of the point. For some reason you accept the premise that because his concerns exist, they are valid. That's not a good approach. Anyone can express any concern - the mere existence of the concern is not what makes it valid. The person who makes the concern is certainly not what makes it valid! What makes it valid is if it is true. So you say - how do you know if it is true? And the answer is we should look at how the arguments are structured, and what evidence the person making the argument produces. And also take a huge swallow of humility and say that in spite of what the Dunning-Kruger effect tells our brains, its really freaking difficult for a layman to have the time or ability to go through these things.
If we look at this strictly as an appeal to authority (which is what it is, because I doubt either of us understand and agree or disagree with the technical aspects of his argument) then we have to evaluate the credibility of this guy. And to me he is completely not credible. He's not a vaccine researcher. He's never developed a vaccine or as far as I can tell he's never been on a team that's done that. He's not a epidemiologist, so he has no papers talking about the effect he's describing. He hasn't published since 1995 at all. There's reason to be skeptical of his motivations because of a financial interest he doesn't disclose. And, seriously - if he had actual, real, actionable research he would be publishing it in Nature or Science and reaping all the rewards that those kind of publications give. Those are once-in-a-lifetime opportunities.
It's a little like someone on the purple site starting a post bringing up a guy who wrote an article about recording that says everyone is going to ruin their recordings if they keep using DAWs. And that is counter to what most engineers know/do. And requires you to buy their product. The guy on the purple site calls the person this world-renowned expert. But then you find out he's never worked in a studio, maybe he did live show setup/teardown project management for a record label for a couple years. No record credits to his name. Hasn't even set foot in a studio since 1995. Owns a live venue, but not a recording studio. And the defense of this person is - well, he certainly raises some valid concerns. No! You'd never pay any attention to that guy. You'd laugh about it. Probably wouldn't even bother responding to it. A random layman might say...but... it says he's a world-renowned expert in music production right here?? Why isn't it valid?
It isn't one way or the highway, and it isn't being against opposing views. It's that credible researchers publish. Their careers depend on publications, and they are judged by the quality of their publications and where they get published. Just like credible engineers and producers record and produce, and their careers depend on it. Someone who has no publications talking about this that and the other is like someone who's never worked in a studio or recorded a record talking about music production. And when people with the skins on the wall, actual publications, look over the claims they say - yeah, this is just factually incorrect. You have to either evaluate the claim or consider the source.
There are plenty of opposing views out there being published. Dr Ionnadis from Stanford published materials which consistently show his position that the disease is less severe than thought and that we're probably overreacting. There are miles, and miles, and miles of difference between someone like him, and someone like these people who are charlatans and con-men being presented as experts!
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Post by svart on Apr 26, 2021 17:49:51 GMT -6
I just read an interesting article about a pair of new antibiotics. Researchers created AI that would search out chemicals that were both active against bacteria and non-toxic to people. They found a few dozen initially and then the AI found 2 candidates that seem to work very well in animal testing. A comment was made by one of the researchers, that the algorithm found novel molecules that human scientists would have never thought to investigate. I think that really punctuated the essence of my thoughts on the narrow views of experts, that humans would have overlooked investigating certain chemicals simply because they don't fit into the understanding of the experts. I welcome people who think outside the box to comment on anything and everything. It's how we avoid the contraction of worldviews when those who claim expertise over things fail to see anything beyond their knowledge base but tell us there is nothing beyond their knowledge to find.
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 26, 2021 18:20:59 GMT -6
svart , what are the odds of a person who has no formal training in your expertise (EE?) coming up with something that: - you wouldn't have thought of - that when explained to you, you would have said "that won't work" - was some kind of secret or presented as inside knowledge - was based off of something you would have said was a fundamental misunderstanding of the topic? Yes, sometimes people do things that the experts say won't work. But these are the exceptions, not the rules, and they're usually based on special insight or perspective. Not ignorance. It's not that experts are unimpeachable and unquestionable. It's that expertise does in fact have value, and most of the time experts know what they're talking about. If experts are ignorant and have a narrow view, as a rule laymen are even more ignorant and myopic. My case against these felons and charlatans is not gatekeeping. It's that what they're peddling is self-serving and dangerous, and we shouldn't give them credence simply because they have something to say.
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Post by drbill on Apr 26, 2021 21:18:49 GMT -6
Matt - I wish you could see how things look from the other side. I won't torment you any more.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
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Post by ericn on Apr 26, 2021 21:25:28 GMT -6
Two, Vanden Bossche is a veterinarian. Why did he work for The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation then?  Is Bill concerned with dog vaccines?  Why the media penchant for nuking any opposing views on vaccine long term affects? Well we are talking about a Virus that jumped species so a vet wouldnât be out of the question but who says he was working on COVID for the Gates foundation, they have a hand in many things including world hunger and many other programs in the third world where reliance on animals is quite high for transportation and agriculture, so Gates foundation and a vet makes sense. Also define working with, I can claim I worked with the Human Genome project, I built their editing and Animation systems, and itâs the wife who has a grasp of genetics.
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Post by drbill on Apr 26, 2021 21:59:29 GMT -6
Calling him a vet is hilarious Eric. The mainstream media's penchant for dumbing down things that don't fit a narrative.... Took me all of about 30 seconds to find this. He just MIGHT know a thing or two more about vaccines than any of us here.... Then again, what the hell do I know. I'm just a musician trying to stay healthy enough to retire someday.... Vanden Bossche received his DVM from the University of Ghent, Belgium, and his PhD degree in Virology from the University of Hohenheim, Germany. He held adjunct faculty appointments at universities in Belgium and Germany. After his career in Academia, Geert joined several vaccine companies (GSK Biologicals, Novartis Vaccines, Solvay Biologicals) to serve various roles in vaccine R&D as well as in late vaccine development. Geert then moved on to join the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundationâs GH Discovery team as SPO and later on to work with GAVI as Senior Ebola Program Manager; he subsequently joined the German Center for Infection Research as Head of the Vaccine Development Office. Geert is now primarily serving as a Biotech/ Vaccine consultant while also conducting his own research on NK cell-based vaccines. His work is driven by a relentless passion to translate scientific breakthrough findings into competitive vaccine products. As a creative thinker, innovator, entrepreneur and visionary, Geert has been invited to speak at multiple international congresses. www.longdom.org/conference-abstracts-files/why-dont-our-vaccines-reach-the-highhanging-fruit.pdf
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Post by ragan on Apr 26, 2021 22:23:31 GMT -6
drbill Do you...think that ericn and matt@IAA are part of the "the mainstream media"? The need to frame this as Your Side vs My Side and constantly evoke boogeymen like "the media" is problematic, in my view. Why not just let the arguments and perspectives sink or swim on their own, without the need for all the extra rhetorical window dressing?
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Post by cyrano on Apr 27, 2021 3:05:42 GMT -6
These symptoms sound very familiar. I had something like that a few years ago. And I have it now. But I've just been tested and I don't have COVID...
Let's not forget there are thousands of virii around. They change all the time. And due to COVID, some lesser evil ones will go unnoticed.
Besides nature trying to get us, we're doing a fine job of poisoning ourselves. The university of Bayreuth (Germany) has just found the plasticisers in plastic cause irreversible brain damage. Other recent studies found an average of 44 man-made molecules in children. Some very dangerous in the long run. Etc.
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Post by cyrano on Apr 27, 2021 3:26:34 GMT -6
Geert Vanden Bossche is a vet, technically. But that doesn't matter.
He hasn't done much research as one would expect from a scientist. The points he raises are valid.
But...
He has no alternative. Stopping vaccinations would take away the one thing the world has against the virus and would land us in a "natural" situation with millions of people dying.
My opinion is that if you don't have an alternative, it's better to keep your comments in the scientific community. Now, his open letter, is clouding the issues and it may sabotage the vaccination effort.
In the US, some vaccination centers have already closed down for lack of people to vaccinate. On the Canadian border, some are vaccinating more Canadians than US citizens.
Isaac Asimov, 1980.
Asimov was right. It hasn't gotten any better since 1980. Today, an intellectual is automatically suspect in the US, cause he knows things the public doesn't.
Unfortunately, due to economic and cultural dominance, that feeling is spreading throughout the western world. And the only factor replacing it, is religious extremism.
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Post by svart on Apr 27, 2021 7:24:27 GMT -6
svart , what are the odds of a person who has no formal training in your expertise (EE?) coming up with something that: - you wouldn't have thought of - that when explained to you, you would have said "that won't work" - was some kind of secret or presented as inside knowledge - was based off of something you would have said was a fundamental misunderstanding of the topic? Yes, sometimes people do things that the experts say won't work. But these are the exceptions, not the rules, and they're usually based on special insight or perspective. Not ignorance. It's not that experts are unimpeachable and unquestionable. It's that expertise does in fact have value, and most of the time experts know what they're talking about. If experts are ignorant and have a narrow view, as a rule laymen are even more ignorant and myopic. My case against these felons and charlatans is not gatekeeping. It's that what they're peddling is self-serving and dangerous, and we shouldn't give them credence simply because they have something to say. I've had all those done, and done them myself. I won't go through enumerating them. Some I barely remember, some are just pissing matches, most are just doing novel things or finding inventive ways to do things and moving on. The point is that I've been on the end of being dismissed because others believed I couldn't possibly have anything to offer because I was not an "expert". This was a huge problem early on in my career simply because I had multiple "specialists" above me all pushing down those below them to stay afloat. I've had multiple experts tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about dozens of times in 20 years. A few of which are now running jokes with some of my coworkers who I still work with who were also present during some of these exchanges. I do all their jobs now. Why? Because eventually everyone rises to their peak, with peak also being a metaphor for a narrow point.. And without branching out and actively keeping yourself from being painted into a corner of knowledge, you end up making yourself extinct if the industry makes a turn. Every day I just read about electronics stuff. My favorite is reading through the Hackaday type stuff because these guys are coming up with crazy ideas based on pure experimentation. Most of them will never work in the electronics design industry yet they LOVE what they are doing. I've poached a number of ideas from places like this because they're unbound by knowledge and expectations on them to deliver. They can just hack away and if things don't work they don't lose their jobs. My industry is VERY conservative for the most part. There is not much room for untested theories and that's one thing I dislike about it. I came up with a patent-able idea for a hybrid Vector Network Analyzer using proprietary phase modulation of harmonically related carriers, only possible through the powers of DSP. My digital design counterpart and I proofed it out in MATLAB and we had a low frequency proof of concept working on the bench with a FPGA and DAC reference design and one of our existing receiver designs. The CTO and VP of engineering didn't understand the concept and they poo-pooed the idea because it was too risky to go inventing things for a product rather than design in a known method. Ok, so one good story even though I said I wouldn't.. We had two Principle RF Engineers on staff, I was just an engineer, one of maybe a dozen somewhere around 2005. We had a problem where an RF tuner needed to be able to tune in definable frequency steps at 200us intervals to follow a series of 10us pulses across 1GHz of bandwidth. The tuner board used an off-the-shelf tuner IC meant for cable tv boxes. They worked well but weren't intended to tune very fast. The tuners couldn't tune faster than 4ms, or as we were saying, "this is fucking impossible". The RF guys decided to parallel up a few tuners and try to play some tricks of skipping pulses on some traces and hitting those pulses on subsequent traces but even then it was missing too many and taking forever to build one trace. I was researching the new (at the time) DDS (direct digital synthesis) chips and thought "wow, if only these could go high enough in frequency they would be perfect!". And during my research I thought of a bunch of ways to try to make a DDS (about 200MHz total bandwidth) span 1GHz of bandwidth with no spurious or harmonics in-band. For the laypeople reading, that's really tough to do. Anyway, I got a hare-brained idea that PLLs mostly acted like frequency multipliers when used at a static frequency. They take the REF frequency, divide it down to something easily compared in the PFD (phase-frequency-detector). The output stimulates a VCO (voltage controlled oscillator) to oscillate at a certain frequency and the PLL takes a copy of that output, divides it down to the PFD frequency and compares it in real-time with the divided REF frequency. Generally, the REF is steady and the VCO output walks around slightly as the PLL pushes and pulls current to try to keep it in place. However, what if the REF input were to move? Would the PLL "follow" the REF input around like a dog on a leash? What if I used the DDS as a moving REF input, would the VCO output move in conjunction with the DDS frequency? I was told by both RF guys, the director of CATV engineering and the VP of CATV engineering that I was less of an engineer to even suggest such a thing.After hours, I scrounged up a PLL/VCO reference design and used my DDS reference design as the REF frequency. A few hours of tweaking and tuning timings and I was able to jump to any consecutive frequency point in sub-100us by stepping the DDS in fine but fast steps. We had a meeting with corporate the next week and my bosses proposed their ideas for paralleling up tuner ICs despite their idea still being too slow, requiring 10x more board space than we had, and about 20x more power than we had available. Corporate was not amused and stopped the meeting early. They asked if anyone else had something to add. I raised my hand and said I had a solution. My bosses immediately started to dismiss me from the room saying that I had no idea what I was talking about and I was wasting company time, etc. Luckily the CTO and CEO stopped them and asked me to explain myself. I offered to SHOW them my solution instead. They came and took a look at my contraption and the CTO looked me dead in the eyes and said "I'm glad you showed this to us. It just saved all your jobs". They had come to shut us down that very day if we did not have a solution. So not only did my novel idea save the site, I got a raise and a promotion and worked as the lead engineer for that product. During the next 18 months my boss resigned. One of the RF engineers was fired. The other quit in a rage and walked out. Our company was bought a few years later and that product was their prime desire. I got a big payout for my stock and a good offer to come on board to the new company. So yeah, I'm going to listen to everybody and anybody have their say. I'm NEVER going to dismiss someone because I don't agree or think I know better. Sometimes being ignorant of common knowledge is the BEST thing to sidestep problems. People who don't know why a problem exists are usually the best to see around the problem with new perspectives. I've had technicians come up with great ideas based on limited knowledge but fresh eyes. I've had salesmen and marketing folks suggest ideas that turned out to be better than I came up with. I've talked to folks outside of the design community who ask me things like "well, why can't you do xxx" when I mention not being able to do things in my job and their prodding be the impetus for me to stand back and solve the problem from a completely new approach. Above all, I'm not going to dismiss someone simply because I need to defend the idea that education trumps inventiveness. I may be college educated but my real learning comes from doing and trying and breaking stuff and never allowing myself to become complacent with status-quo mentality. Being too sure of what you know is a death sentence for learning.
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Post by svart on Apr 27, 2021 7:51:00 GMT -6
drbill Do you...think that ericn and matt@IAA are part of the "the mainstream media"? The need to frame this as Your Side vs My Side and constantly evoke boogeymen like "the media" is problematic, in my view. Why not just let the arguments and perspectives sink or swim on their own, without the need for all the extra rhetorical window dressing? The media has had quite the involvement in how various pieces of the covid puzzle have been framed since it started. With the latest CNN employee candidly admitting to steering narratives around covid for ratings and political agenda involving the election, how can we not see the media as a huge self-interest? It's pretty clear that a lot of cherry-picking has been done with information on covid by the media, so how can we trust what's been offered to us when it's all based on confirming the consumer's bias for ratings?
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Post by ragan on Apr 27, 2021 8:31:43 GMT -6
drbill Do you...think that ericn and matt@IAA are part of the "the mainstream media"? The need to frame this as Your Side vs My Side and constantly evoke boogeymen like "the media" is problematic, in my view. Why not just let the arguments and perspectives sink or swim on their own, without the need for all the extra rhetorical window dressing? The media has had quite the involvement in how various pieces of the covid puzzle have been framed since it started. With the latest CNN employee candidly admitting to steering narratives around covid for ratings and political agenda involving the election, how can we not see the media as a huge self-interest? It's pretty clear that a lot of cherry-picking has been done with information on covid by the media, so how can we trust what's been offered to us when it's all based on confirming the consumer's bias for ratings? We probably see that (what youâre talking about) a bit differently, and I donât have any way to judge the merit of the claim about whatever specific CNN employee youâre referring to (nor have I ever watched CNN for that matter...I will not subject myself to cable news of any stripe...), but I can easily agree with some of the general thrust of what youâre saying. My question to Bill was totally different to anything like that though. When people are discussing something and someone makes a specific point, or a specific set of points, and the response is âsee, the mainstream media is just so corruptâ or whatever, not only is it a logical non sequitur and a rhetorical cop out, it actively poisons the well of the discussion. Along with dodging the duty to respond validly and actually defend their own positions, it implies that the other personâs views are somehow wholly due to some sort of corrupt media influence. A corrupt influence that they have somehow avoided, because of course their media consumption is pure and free from bias and hubris. Weâre all swimming in âmediaâ influence. Itâs fashionable in some circles to use a nebulous notion of âmainstream mediaâ as a rhetorical Get Out Of Jail Free card when defending oneâs positions becomes difficult, but that doesnât make it valid. So when Matt or Eric or someone else makes a point, that hasnât drawn on any media authority or referenced any media source, and the response is along the lines of âsee this is the problem with the mainstream mediaâ or whatever, itâs disingenuous and it harms the prospects for valid discussion. Thatâs what I was addressing. To flip it for an example, if someone says to me "here are three reasons I don't believe in the Covid vaccine research..." and I just say, "see this is what watching Fox News does to your mind", not only am I not addressing any of their points, I'm making sure we can't have a real conversation because I'm categorizing everything according to an idealogical framework that I'm projecting onto anything they say to me.  I might respond, âyeah but Fox News does put out bad faith, false contentâ, and that would be true, but it would totally miss the point. The person Iâm talking to didnât say anything about Fox News, their positions arenât based on Fox Newsâ credibility, and Iâm just reflexively reducing their perspective to a construct that I made up because I donât have a real response to their actual points. They wouldnât (and shouldnât) take me seriously in that conversation.
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