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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 11:52:48 GMT -6
First post. Hey all.
I'm building a small studio and starting to get into the details, like patchbay planning and paneling and all that. You know, the fun stuff.
I'm trying to figure out the best way to set up for having a guitar/bass player play in the CR and have either their amp in the recording space, or the amp head remains in the CR, with speaker cable passing through to the live space, and one of the questions for me is, "home runs" or "connectorizing" ?
I figure the options are, in the case of "combo amp in the live room":
(1) 1/4" cable to wall panel in CR > another 1/4" cable from mic input panel in LR > Amp
(2) 1/4" cable to reamp-type boxes (Radial makes a pair that do this), sending buffered signal over reverse mic lines, then converting back to unbalanced > Amp.
(3) 1/4" cable that penetrates the walls, the hole is insulated, then terminates in a 1/4" on the other side. A home run.
I worry a little about signal loss through all the connectors, and 3 lengths of cable in (1)
I think (2) is probably OK for a lot of cases, but someone (or some combo of gear) will be fussy about impedance and it won't sound "right".
(3) seems like the safest bet, but it's also the sloppiest, and least flexible, in terms of cable lengths that might be needed, or having too much.
I worry less about capacitance, cause everyone's got a pedalboard these days, and good quality buffers are available (I own some as well).
What do you guys think?
The other question is: in the case of split head/cab, how long can speaker cable runs go before you start to have regrets? My rooms are small, so even if connectorized and in wall panels, we're not talking more than about 20-35 ft of cable run.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 20, 2021 12:03:05 GMT -6
If you’re in the design phase still I’d keep a couple wall jacks that are just unbalanced 1/4” instrument cable so you can run to combo amps. Just use good quality cable and I think you’ll be fine. Additionally I’d run a couple speaker cable jacks so that you can keep amp heads in the control room. It’s so helpful to be able turn the knobs on an amp in the CR and be able to really hear what you’re doing.
As far as how long is too long for cable runs. I’ve run 150’ plus feet of mic/line cable in a bar install and it worked fine. I think it was Mogami quad cable that I wired to be unbalanced.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 12:07:43 GMT -6
Exactly right, I want the flexibility of having either able to go down.
So maybe (2x) 1/4" instrument jacks and (2x) 1/4" Speaker jacks. I am in the design phase, so I could always pop a couple of Speakons in the panels as well. Then I still have the option of using my balanced mic lines for reamping.
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Post by Quint on Jul 20, 2021 12:20:31 GMT -6
Best option in my opinion seems to be to have a wall panel on both sides, with, at minimum, a xlr line level connection (using mic cable) AND a 1/4" speaker connection (using speaker cable), all running through conduit inside the wall.
Add a third connection using 1/4" and instrument cable if you also want to be able to try running directly to the amp in the LR, thus avoiding the back and forth conversion through the Radial SGI.
Then you have the flexibility to accommodate any of the scenarios you mentioned. It's not much more money to just build in flexibility now rather than kicking yourself down the road.
I have the SGI and would recommend it or a product like it for long runs between guitar and amp, but you'd have to be the judge of how far is too far. Also, keep in mind that the aforementioned xlr connection could come in handy for reamping later.
If it were me, I'd be putting in a lot more than just one or two connections through the wall, but this would at least get you to where you're trying to go.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 12:40:52 GMT -6
Best option in my opinion seems to be to have a wall panel on both sides, with, at minimum, a xlr line level connection (using mic cable) AND a 1/4" speaker connection (using speaker cable), all running through conduit inside the wall. Add a third connection using 1/4" and instrument cable if you also want to be able to try running directly to the amp in the LR, thus avoiding the back and forth conversion through the Radial SGI. Then you have the flexibility to accommodate any of the scenarios you mentioned. It's not much more money to just build in flexibility now rather than kicking yourself down the road. I have the SGI and would recommend it or a product like it for long runs between guitar and amp, but you'd have to be the judge of how far is too far. Also, keep in mind that the aforementioned xlr connection could come in handy for reamping later. If it were me, I'd be putting in a lot more than just one or two connections through the wall, but this would at least get you to where you're trying to go. Thanks. The SGI was the one I was thinking of. So far nobody is like "you must not run through any panels", so I'll drop the question about a home run guitar cable. Panel connections should be fine. I was only talking about guitar-related connections so far, but having 2 or 4 (or more) balanced lines with reverse gender from the get go would help in addition to the speaker and instrument connections. There will be probably 16-24 mic lines (which I'll never need all at once) and those can move all sorts of non-microphone signals back and forth, so I'm pretty sure I'd be covered. Plus plenty of CAT6 for headphones, KVM, etc. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 20, 2021 14:45:06 GMT -6
Best I've heard was a Nady wireless system!
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Post by bowie on Jul 20, 2021 18:15:37 GMT -6
I agree that running a couple of well-shielded, 1/4" instrument cables is a good idea. A lot of players are expecting a certain interaction when plugged in and I don't like to mess with that by doing any conversion in between.
In my set-up, I try keeping the head in the control room and cab on the other side of the wall as it's so much more convenient, but you have to decide if the layout of your space allows for that. Off the top of my head, I can't tell you what the max length for a speaker cable is in that situation, but I've a feeling it's not long.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 19:05:13 GMT -6
Best I've heard was a Nady wireless system! I'm not au fait with wireless systems, but that's a really great idea. I hadn't thought of that as even a possibility. I think the downside is the buffering... you have to be cool with that because there's no other way to pull off wireless. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 19:07:35 GMT -6
I agree that running a couple of well-shielded, 1/4" instrument cables is a good idea. A lot of players are expecting a certain interaction when plugged in and I don't like to mess with that by doing any conversion in between. In my set-up, I try keeping the head in the control room and cab on the other side of the wall as it's so much more convenient, but you have to decide if the layout of your space allows for that. Off the top of my head, I can't tell you what the max length for a speaker cable is in that situation, but I've a feeling it's not long. The home run idea was to handle exactly the thing you're talking about. There is that relationship that you don't wanna mess with for a guitarist used to the interaction. I'll definitely allow for both ways. Sometimes it's a tweed Champ or a Princeton, or a Bluesbreaker in which case, the choice of where it has to be is made for me. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 20, 2021 19:10:59 GMT -6
Best I've heard was a Nady wireless system! NADY??? Are you certain? |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 20, 2021 19:40:08 GMT -6
I think it was their very first version. I was surprised by how good it sounded.
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Post by ericn on Jul 20, 2021 21:57:03 GMT -6
I think it was their very first version. I was surprised by how good it sounded. Early Nady was pretty good at the time, but they never really tried to keep up. Later they relied on cheap OEM stuff. I don’t understand the need for an unbalanced cable run, the versatility of a balanced cable and adapters is just as easy, you can run unbalanced through a balanced cable but you can’t run balanced through an unbalanced cable. I get the idea of a couple of speaker cable runs. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 0:16:03 GMT -6
Fair enough. It would be easy to adapt a 1/4" to XLR and run over pins 1 + 2. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jul 21, 2021 7:26:52 GMT -6
I ended up with three speaker lines and three mic lines. No combo amp needs on my end.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jul 21, 2021 13:11:56 GMT -6
I built a 1/4 inch patchbay for this . Basically all of my amps, whether they are combos, or heads (at this moment I believe I'm down to 20) reside in the control room. And the speaker outputs of 14 those amps are wired to female 1/4 inch connectors. Then under the amp outputs, there are another 4 female jacks, which are wired to 4 x cabinets I have mic'ed and wired in the basement of the house. Each cab has different speakers, and are different configurations, 1 x 12, 2 x 12, 4 x 12, and I set them up ahead of time, for the style of music we are gonna do that day .... you get the idea. This allows a guitarist to plug into any of the amps (only 14 are wired at any time) and we can pick what cabinet we want for that particular song. I usually know what to have wired and ready before we start, but this gives us quite a palette of sounds to choose from, and we can switch cabs in a matter of seconds. I designed and built this over twenty years ago, and if I remember correctly EQ did a story on "The Studio Guitar Patch" as they called it, because the guys in Blue Oyster Cult were so moved by the ability to change amps and cabs in seconds... So there ya go... |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 21, 2021 13:38:00 GMT -6
I built a 1/4 inch patchbay for this . Basically all of my amps, whether they are combos, or heads (at this moment I believe I'm down to 20) reside in the control room. And the speaker outputs of 14 those amps are wired to female 1/4 inch connectors. Then under the amp outputs, there are another 4 female jacks, which are wired to 4 x cabinets I have mic'ed and wired in the basement of the house. Each cab has different speakers, and are different configurations, 1 x 12, 2 x 12, 4 x 12, and I set them up ahead of time, for the style of music we are gonna do that day .... you get the idea. This allows a guitarist to plug into any of the amps (only 14 are wired at any time) and we can pick what cabinet we want for that particular song. I usually know what to have wired and ready before we start, but this gives us quite a palette of sounds to choose from, and we can switch cabs in a matter of seconds. I designed and built this over twenty years ago, and if I remember correctly EQ did a story on "The Studio Guitar Patch" as they called it, because the guys in Blue Oyster Cult were so moved by the ability to change amps and cabs in seconds... So there ya go... Thats brilliant, I’d the same exact thing if I was running a bigger setup. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2021 0:26:44 GMT -6
I built a 1/4 inch patchbay for this . Basically all of my amps, whether they are combos, or heads (at this moment I believe I'm down to 20) reside in the control room. And the speaker outputs of 14 those amps are wired to female 1/4 inch connectors. Then under the amp outputs, there are another 4 female jacks, which are wired to 4 x cabinets I have mic'ed and wired in the basement of the house. Each cab has different speakers, and are different configurations, 1 x 12, 2 x 12, 4 x 12, and I set them up ahead of time, for the style of music we are gonna do that day .... you get the idea. This allows a guitarist to plug into any of the amps (only 14 are wired at any time) and we can pick what cabinet we want for that particular song. I usually know what to have wired and ready before we start, but this gives us quite a palette of sounds to choose from, and we can switch cabs in a matter of seconds. I designed and built this over twenty years ago, and if I remember correctly EQ did a story on "The Studio Guitar Patch" as they called it, because the guys in Blue Oyster Cult were so moved by the ability to change amps and cabs in seconds... So there ya go... Well that is definitely the advanced technique. I'll look more deeply at this tomorrow. Thanks for sharing, it gives me some good ideas. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jul 22, 2021 10:53:37 GMT -6
I designed and built this over twenty years ago, and if I remember correctly EQ did a story on "The Studio Guitar Patch" as they called it, because the guys in Blue Oyster Cult were so moved by the ability to change amps and cabs in seconds... So there ya go... Awesome setup, man. Maybe donr can comment?! |
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Post by Quint on Jul 22, 2021 11:38:34 GMT -6
I built a 1/4 inch patchbay for this . Basically all of my amps, whether they are combos, or heads (at this moment I believe I'm down to 20) reside in the control room. And the speaker outputs of 14 those amps are wired to female 1/4 inch connectors. Then under the amp outputs, there are another 4 female jacks, which are wired to 4 x cabinets I have mic'ed and wired in the basement of the house. Each cab has different speakers, and are different configurations, 1 x 12, 2 x 12, 4 x 12, and I set them up ahead of time, for the style of music we are gonna do that day .... you get the idea. This allows a guitarist to plug into any of the amps (only 14 are wired at any time) and we can pick what cabinet we want for that particular song. I usually know what to have wired and ready before we start, but this gives us quite a palette of sounds to choose from, and we can switch cabs in a matter of seconds. I designed and built this over twenty years ago, and if I remember correctly EQ did a story on "The Studio Guitar Patch" as they called it, because the guys in Blue Oyster Cult were so moved by the ability to change amps and cabs in seconds... So there ya go... That is an awesome setup. How does this work with the amp heads all being on at once though? I would assume they're all on at once, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do the quick compare and contrast if you had to individually turn on each head and wait for it to warm up? Conventional wisdom dictates that a tube amp must be connected to a load (speaker cab), otherwise you might burn it up. Does this give you any trouble? Assuming they're all on at once, it seems like at least 10 of those amp heads would not be connected to any load at any given time. Is there some sort of resistive load on each 1/4" jack that disconnects/deactivates when a cable is plugged in to the jack? How is this with noise? Do you notice that you pick up any noise running long cable runs to the speaker cabs in the basement? Do you use the same model mic on each of the four cabs or do you kind of have a "here's what generally works best on this particular cab" setup going? I'm just wondering about making apples to apples comparisons. I'm building a large shed (standalone) out behind my studio in the next six months or so. I may have to run underground conduit between the two buildings and use the shed for a similar kind of setup. Hence, all of my questions. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 22, 2021 12:58:43 GMT -6
I have a control room, live room, and 3 amp booths.
I have a 1/4" and a speakon cable running from the live room, through the walls, into my back iso, where I have a 6x10 bass cab mic'd and ready. Bass player is always happy to be tracking along with the drummer in the live room.
My second back booth only has a 20 foot guitar cable running through the live room wall to the booth. I figure, if we need more distance, we can plug into a pedal board and be good. This booth is great for combos when a full band is tracking. I could toss a head/cab setup in there too, but haven't yet.
My 3rd booth is the most flexible. I have 1/4" speaker cables running through the walls from from both my live room and control room. I also have 1/4 cables doing the same. Can have the head either in the live room or control room, can have a combo running to a cab from either location, or I can set up a combo in the booth. Guitarist has the option to be in the room with the band, or in the control room doing dubs.
No panels for any of that stuff at my place though. Just ran and labeled up the cables.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2021 13:16:08 GMT -6
I have a control room, live room, and 3 amp booths. I have a 1/4" and a speakon cable running from the live room, through the walls, into my back iso, where I have a 6x10 bass cab mic'd and ready. Bass player is always happy to be tracking along with the drummer in the live room. My second back booth only has a 20 foot guitar cable running through the live room wall to the booth. I figure, if we need more distance, we can plug into a pedal board and be good. This booth is great for combos when a full band is tracking. I could toss a head/cab setup in there too, but haven't yet. My 3rd booth is the most flexible. I have 1/4" speaker cables running through the walls from from both my live room and control room. I also have 1/4 cables doing the same. Can have the head either in the live room or control room, can have a combo running to a cab from either location, or I can set up a combo in the booth. Guitarist has the option to be in the room with the band, or in the control room doing dubs. No panels for any of that stuff at my place though. Just ran and labeled up the cables. Right, so one big home-run-o-rama. Thanks for the input, all very helpful. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2021 15:55:01 GMT -6
I built a 1/4 inch patchbay for this . Basically all of my amps, whether they are combos, or heads (at this moment I believe I'm down to 20) reside in the control room. And the speaker outputs of 14 those amps are wired to female 1/4 inch connectors. Then under the amp outputs, there are another 4 female jacks, which are wired to 4 x cabinets I have mic'ed and wired in the basement of the house. Each cab has different speakers, and are different configurations, 1 x 12, 2 x 12, 4 x 12, and I set them up ahead of time, for the style of music we are gonna do that day .... you get the idea. This allows a guitarist to plug into any of the amps (only 14 are wired at any time) and we can pick what cabinet we want for that particular song. I usually know what to have wired and ready before we start, but this gives us quite a palette of sounds to choose from, and we can switch cabs in a matter of seconds. I designed and built this over twenty years ago, and if I remember correctly EQ did a story on "The Studio Guitar Patch" as they called it, because the guys in Blue Oyster Cult were so moved by the ability to change amps and cabs in seconds... So there ya go... That is an awesome setup. How does this work with the amp heads all being on at once though? I would assume they're all on at once, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do the quick compare and contrast if you had to individually turn on each head and wait for it to warm up? Conventional wisdom dictates that a tube amp must be connected to a load (speaker cab), otherwise you might burn it up. Does this give you any trouble? Assuming they're all on at once, it seems like at least 10 of those amp heads would not be connected to any load at any given time. Is there some sort of resistive load on each 1/4" jack that disconnects/deactivates when a cable is plugged in to the jack? How is this with noise? Do you notice that you pick up any noise running long cable runs to the speaker cabs in the basement? Do you use the same model mic on each of the four cabs or do you kind of have a "here's what generally works best on this particular cab" setup going? I'm just wondering about making apples to apples comparisons. I'm building a large shed (standalone) out behind my studio in the next six months or so. I may have to run underground conduit between the two buildings and use the shed for a similar kind of setup. Hence, all of my questions. Am I wrong in thinking you could have any head in standby and that wouldn't require a load? I thought that was partly what "standby" mode was. Here's where I get found out for supreme ignorance! Something to do with high voltage from the tubes... but that might've been for the benefit of the power supply. Jeez, I can solder but no more than that. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 22, 2021 16:42:20 GMT -6
That is an awesome setup. How does this work with the amp heads all being on at once though? I would assume they're all on at once, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do the quick compare and contrast if you had to individually turn on each head and wait for it to warm up? Conventional wisdom dictates that a tube amp must be connected to a load (speaker cab), otherwise you might burn it up. Does this give you any trouble? Assuming they're all on at once, it seems like at least 10 of those amp heads would not be connected to any load at any given time. Is there some sort of resistive load on each 1/4" jack that disconnects/deactivates when a cable is plugged in to the jack? How is this with noise? Do you notice that you pick up any noise running long cable runs to the speaker cabs in the basement? Do you use the same model mic on each of the four cabs or do you kind of have a "here's what generally works best on this particular cab" setup going? I'm just wondering about making apples to apples comparisons. I'm building a large shed (standalone) out behind my studio in the next six months or so. I may have to run underground conduit between the two buildings and use the shed for a similar kind of setup. Hence, all of my questions. Am I wrong in thinking you could have any head in standby and that wouldn't require a load? I thought that was partly what "standby" mode was. Here's where I get found out for supreme ignorance! Something to do with high voltage from the tubes... but that might've been for the benefit of the power supply. Jeez, I can solder but no more than that. Honestly, I don't know whether or not use of the standby switch would negate the need for a proper load. Interestingly enough, I was just reading an article the other day that said standby switches are not even really necessary these days, due to the availability of cheaper, better, larger capacitors, but are still used because that's how everyone has done it forever. www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/great-standby-switch-myth/I'd like to get some second opinions on this, as I've only ever heard that standby is necessary (and used it accordingly), but I thought it was interesting. |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 22, 2021 20:43:04 GMT -6
This has taken a deep... yet excellent turn. Standby switches, plate voltage and overall tone loss?!
Groovy!! But way too crispy to convey thoughts right now. Much to digest.
Overall? I don't really trust "through" panels in iso booths. Usually leave me asking WTF happened to the sound?
Plus it seems, no matter what scheme is hatched at some point you'll need to bust out adapters & gender benders. Impossible to accommodate every scenario in 4 or 6 patch jacks.
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Post by ericn on Jul 22, 2021 21:42:52 GMT -6
This has taken a deep... yet excellent turn. Standby switches, plate voltage and overall tone loss?! Groovy!! But way too crispy to convey thoughts right now. Much to digest. Overall? I don't really trust "through" panels in iso booths. Usually leave me asking WTF happened to the sound? Plus it seems, no matter what scheme is hatched at some point you'll need to bust out adapters & gender benders. Impossible to accommodate every scenario in 4 or 6 patch jacks. So J are you saying we agree, just run balanced and use adapters? Damn old gear pimps on the same page.😎 |
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