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Post by svart on Jul 31, 2013 14:43:10 GMT -6
Honestly, I've never been good at writing songs. I know what I like to hear but I just can't seem to create anything I like and in the odd chance that I've come up with a couple of riffs or two that I do like, I can't seem to do anything with them.
How do you guys get around these types of issues and more importantly, how do you go about actually writing whole songs?
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Post by henge on Aug 1, 2013 7:05:12 GMT -6
It seems everyone needs that hook or idea to get into the song. For me it's always the melody line. For others it's the lyric or even a particular sound or riff. After that initial kernel I try to finish off all the melody lines ( verse, prechorus,chorus,bridge etc.) and then on to lyrics. Some people I know work like this but a lot of people find different ways into the song.
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Post by AllenWilliamPenner on Aug 2, 2013 13:37:29 GMT -6
Whenever I write a song I find it best to record it at the same time. I do my best songwriting when I can listen to my idea being played back at me, then I play along with it. If you have a riff that you like, try recording it (along to a click) and loop it. Then write a chord progression to go along with it, or maybe a beat. Then take the chord progression and the beat (exclude the riff) and write a verse. Switch up the chord progression and repeat that to write the chorus.
This is only one way to do it. I know everyone says there is know right or wrong way to write a song... and it's true. But just start with that, then build on it and figure out what works for you.
I used to do a lot of writing session where we would get no-where. The more you just continue to write the better you will get. It's like playing guitar. You gotta do it for hundreds of hours before you're going to really hear what you like. Just don't give up. And write with others.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 2, 2013 20:12:42 GMT -6
Whenever I write a song I find it best to record it at the same time. I'm just the opposite...I find writing in the studio a major distraction. Nothing worse than writing a song with somebody searching for a drum loop. As far as how coming up with a song - lots of times it's a melody...sometimes its a phrase...I like hearing someone say something and it hits you that it could be a song title. Sometimes it's an idea - having the inspiration to write about something. I think that's the purest form...you have something to say - now what's the coolest way to say it.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 3, 2013 1:53:55 GMT -6
my songs are inspired by a variety of things, mostly rhythmical phrases, sometimes a melody pops in, or i'll hear someone say something that gets me going.
but the single biggest and most effective thing i do, is i write lyrics backwards. Meaning, i know what the point of the entire piece is, then i build lyrics moving end to beginning of the tune. Maybe weird?, but totally works for me, and I rarely seem to wander off.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 3, 2013 8:43:43 GMT -6
No - I think that's normal...You start with an idea, build a chorus and then start at the first verse supporting the chorus.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2013 12:08:45 GMT -6
Hm, there are so many ways to start off a song idea... For me, it always helped me to know as much as i can about drums and rhythm. Then session around that beat i have in mind. Until having a cool lick, or even just a cool rhytmic pattern around a chord progression or a single chord. Than a vocal idea has to come up. Probably the right time to decide, what part of the song this should be, chorus, verse, intro or a cool bridge. Mostly i come up with one or two parts and then already like to jam with someone else, a band member, and see, what he comes up with. 'Developing' the song. Not beeing too schematic. Often enough, the real art is keeping the best errors. It has to be fun and enthusiam, otherwise it might not sound good but constructed, not authentic. Sometimes the restrictions on your instrument or your playing or your theoretical knowledge leads to pragmatic bridges between the parts that sound good by more or less accidents. I always try to forget anything i read about musical theories. I listened alot to Hendrix and Led Zep. I always try tp have a kind of arragement in mind, in a minimalistic way. Always thinking about how to make slight but interesting changes from verse to verse and chorus to chorus, that can be a rhythmic little twist, a twist in the lyrics or pronounciation, making the song structure more interesting. I like to have a climax in the middle of the second half of the song. Sometimes even a complete change of things to surprise the listener. I love the idea to have a somewhat "childish" approach to a song idea, playing around with things and never be too serious or forcing a direction that i think might be just comfortable or what somebody normally would expect. In some positions of a song, and unexpected experimental part can do the trick, sometimes the opposite, an obvious cliche might be surprising and interesting... Well, generally - before i come up with a good idea, there is one psychological thing that i really really appreciate. And this is, surprisingly, boredom and a kind of 'shortage'. A shortage of ressources, inspiration, stimuli. This seems to be a psychological law. Creativity is born out of a shortage of stimuli and boredom. You can't have new ideas if you are consuming stimuli and ideas of other all the time. It is like you have an idea for a new recipe, a meal, when you really have been waiting until you are really hungry. Abundance kills the creativity for me... Well, just my 2 cents. Sorry if this turns out to be not too helpful or incomprehensible, it is just my very subjective point of view on the topic of songwriting...
Best regards, Martin
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2013 13:18:10 GMT -6
Hey Allen good to see you here!
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 3, 2013 14:19:42 GMT -6
No - I think that's normal...You start with an idea, build a chorus and then start at the first verse supporting the chorus. nice to see the one thing i do backwards, is the one thing i do that most don't consider backwards? lol!
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Post by svart on Aug 5, 2013 12:35:02 GMT -6
Some good insight. I started out as a drummer. I always had timing and rhythm so drums and bass were natural for me. I'm just terrible at melodies. they always end up monotonous, very much like rhythms, rather than melodies. Does anybody have any suggestions about how to break out of this mode? I've tried all kinds of things but I always fall back into monotony.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 17:50:48 GMT -6
Some good insight. I started out as a drummer. I always had timing and rhythm so drums and bass were natural for me. I'm just terrible at melodies. they always end up monotonous, very much like rhythms, rather than melodies. Does anybody have any suggestions about how to break out of this mode? I've tried all kinds of things but I always fall back into monotony. Hm, I learned a lot about singing and melodies in a school choir back in the days. It was not only fun, until today it was an invaluable experience, the choir leader was an excellent vocal coach and overall musician. Listen to all stuff Beatles and classical choirworks. Händel, Haydn, Bach... And - sing along - with the different melody lines. Get a feeling for how these melodies work by actually singing them. No joke, i mean it. I guess after a while doing this you might never run out of melody ideas again. Worked for me, though.... Best regards, Martin
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 18:08:59 GMT -6
PS: ...you see many guitar players seemingly singing along with their improvised solos? Well, many of them really actually sing the solos, they just flow out of their imagination (don't know if this is the right word for audio?) while they are singing - the fingers just play that stuff.... After some time many people will be able to just have the idea of singing and the melodies will come up as a result of the experience of singing and how this works. Most good melodies, no matter if played on a guitar, on keys, whatever instrument, are actually melodies that work like vocal melodies....singing is an essential process to build up a melodic repertoire, all the bits and bolt, in your mind...
Best regards, Martin
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 18:27:00 GMT -6
Last side note.... I recently watched a live video of Arch Enemy playing in Japan. Since vocalist Angela Gossow is a growling kind of extreme metal vocalist, melodic range is very very limited. So guess what works for the audience? They sing along the guitar hooks and melodies - because these are essentially vocal melodies...that's the way it works. that was very funny to watch and notice ;-)
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 5, 2013 19:07:02 GMT -6
Some good insight. I started out as a drummer. I always had timing and rhythm so drums and bass were natural for me. I'm just terrible at melodies. they always end up monotonous, very much like rhythms, rather than melodies. Does anybody have any suggestions about how to break out of this mode? I've tried all kinds of things but I always fall back into monotony. don't fret(no pun intended lol!), u have a very powerful tool, your ability to phrase, and groove are already there, i would rather listen to someone singing out of tune in time and with great rhythm, than someone nailing notes and squared off on the 1s any day of the week! that being said, i am melodically and harmonically compromised as well It takes me rather long to work ideas out melodically, At least we're not alone
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Post by svart on Aug 6, 2013 8:27:19 GMT -6
The problem is that, I know what I like to hear, but when I'm left to try to emulate it, I can't. I'm not sure how to explain it, it's like my mind goes completely blank. Strange, eh?
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Post by matt on Aug 6, 2013 11:49:48 GMT -6
Nearly every song I've been writing lately is a collaboration with my vocalist. He brings lyrics - often not set to a melody yet, so it's really poetry - and we work things out part by part. He often has a tone center in mind, so that becomes the key of the song-to-be. Luckily, he does not always think in E or A. We usually can sketch a song in one session. The arrangement is a different matter. We struggle with tuning the song sometimes for several sessions before reaching a consensus on the song structure.
For those having trouble with a recalcitrant muse, I suggest picking a known song and covering it. Rearrange/re-imagine it. That's what we did. So right now we are tracking "Aint No Grave" as if Zeppelin did it. Which they did, sort of. Their song "In My Time of Dying" has a direct lift of lyrics (meet me jesus, meet me in the middle of the air). Thieving Magpies. Still love 'em though. Love them enough to rip their vibe, and maybe something good will rub off during the process. But I hope our talent always shows through. That's a must, IMHO.
I tell my vocalist: we steal to inspire something different, maybe even new. Standing On the Shoulders of Giants, and all that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 21:43:05 GMT -6
I like to mess around on a guitar and sing insults about my brother to a melody. Keeps it fun. Here are some serious songs I wrote for anyone who only hear the hardcore songs about workplace safety. www.chasememanhattan.bandcamp.com
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Post by scumbum on Aug 8, 2013 9:01:23 GMT -6
I got this book and its helped me write some songs . I recommend picking it up . It helps you learn to analyze songs you like and how to emulate them . www.amazon.com/Shortcuts-Hit-Songwriting-Techniques-Writing/dp/0982004001www.robinfrederick.com/hits.htmlTheres 3 ways I write songs . 1.Vocal Melody first - I make up a melody , don't record it , then after a few days if it still comes back to me and I can't seem to forget it , I then record the melody and figure out the chords that go with it . 2. Using a Ghost song - That book I recommended teaches this method . 3.Inspiration - My Hamster died and the turmoil inspired me to write a song - These type of songs which are the best usually , don't happen too often . I was a bass player first , then went to drums , then to guitar and last vocals . I know what your saying about having problems with melody's . I used to be able to have an idea of a melody , but figuring it out was difficult . Then when I started taking singing lessons , your forced to learn scales and your forced to learn to hear every note exactly in your head . Go learn to sing songs you like , like the Beatles . Sing along with their CD , all the way through , then when its done after 40 minutes , keep singing by yourself and see what you come up with .
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2013 12:28:52 GMT -6
That book is expensive.. But I might give it a try anyway.
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Post by scumbum on Aug 8, 2013 13:14:58 GMT -6
That book is expensive.. But I might give it a try anyway. Wow , it is expensive ! I don't remember what I paid . The things John Kenn and Tony said go right along with the tips in the book . If you can't write a song after reading it , there might be no hope for you A cool tip in the book is if your having problems coming up with a Melody , take the lyrics from a song you like and make up a brand new melody using those lyrics . Then once you have a new Melody , write new lyrics . Then figure out the chords that go with your new Melody and new Lyrics and there you go , you have a song that is not ripping anybody off , you just used the Pro's Song kinda like training wheels .
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 12, 2013 15:32:08 GMT -6
It's a combination of thought experiments and following my ears.
My premise is usually based on an idea or technique - like what if I make up my own pentatonic scale and have to use that. Or what if I play a chord progression made of 7th chords, but each chord is inverted so the 7th is in the bass, or I've to make up a guitar lick using the whole tone scale that doesn't sound too whole-toney etc. etc. I like dissonance, so interesting clashes and resolutions - or psuedo resolutions of tension are sort of where I lean. After that I just sort of see where that idea should go or what sort of ideas would sit well with it. Not exactly suitable for radio play...or near children, or dogs...kind of freaks my girlfriend out but I find the music satisfying. It keeps me interested, anyway.
I've found a fellow noise rocker amigo who wants to do a band thing, though, so maybe I'll have a partner now!
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