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Post by geoff738 on May 17, 2014 10:56:51 GMT -6
Ray Davies does one. Steve Earle has a songwriting camp. I'm sure there are others, I think there's online stuff etc.
If anybody here has done one, was it worth it? Did you learn anything you didn't already know?
JK, you ever thought of teaching one?
Cheers, Geof
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2014 13:49:53 GMT -6
what happened to just transcribing every note from the record and learning that way? That's the jazz musician in me talking lol
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Post by Johnkenn on May 17, 2014 15:29:41 GMT -6
I'm BMI now, but started with ASCAP...ASCAP has songwriter workshops every year...Usually with a guy that has had a bunch of success. I went to one of those before I got a deal. But, you know, it's kind of hard to teach something like that. The best thing I got out of it was the critiques - and you have to try and take good criticism, but still remain yourself. I think you can definitely learn from what's out there. Take your favorite songs and copy the structure, e.g. intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus-outro...There are tons of different song structures - or rondeau's - Intro-verse-push to chorus-half verse-chorus-solo-breakdown-chorus...etc. I think the biggest mistake new writers make is the lack of structure - rambling verses, too slow to the chorus, etc. Also - avoiding cliche is so important. Try and say the something familiar to someone, but say it in a way or turn of phrase that is new and fresh. Of course, pictures are great...but I think that has gone overboard a little...all you hear on Country radio are pictures - "dirt road, six pack, hank jr, party, truck, jacked up truck," etc. I love to hear the TRUTH in a song. Something that makes you go, "holy shit - ain't that the truth..."
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Post by Rock Kennedy on May 18, 2014 9:07:10 GMT -6
As far as dealing with mechanics, you might want to check out: www.coursera.org/course/songwritingThe course focuses far more on lyrics than music. You'll be starting late, but enrolling will let you watch all the videos. I enjoyed it, although I can't really say that I've integrated all the techniques into my writing. I think it's helped me identify some of my weaknesses, but I will probably have to take it again to really make the techniques a part of my regular writing process.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 18, 2014 9:09:18 GMT -6
As far as dealing with mechanics, you might want to check out: www.coursera.org/course/songwritingThe course focuses far more on lyrics than music. You'll be starting late, but enrolling will let you watch all the videos. I enjoyed it, although I can't really say that I've integrated all the techniques into my writing. I think it's helped me identify some of my weaknesses, but I will probably have to take it again to really make the techniques a part of my regular writing process. I was actually looking into this one. I might go for it.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 18, 2014 9:57:54 GMT -6
The thing is, there really aren't any rules...ok - maybe there are parameters and tried and true formulas, but I don't think anyone can say, "That isn't correct." There are rhyme schemes that are tried and true - and I think that's because the human ear wants to phonically hear things rhyme - or maybe we're just used to hearing it...that's why some things sound "right" and others don't.
I think experience is the best teacher. Seeing how your favorite songs do it and then learn from that. Economy of style - saying everything in the most efficient and dramatically moving way you can...Expressing what you want to say without "saying" it...sometimes things can be too "on the nose"...
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Post by tonycamphd on May 18, 2014 10:25:31 GMT -6
The thing is, there really aren't any rules...ok - maybe there are parameters and tried and true formulas, but I don't think anyone can say, "That isn't correct." There are rhyme schemes that are tried and true - and I think that's because the human ear wants to phonically hear things rhyme - or maybe we're just used to hearing it...that's why some things sound "right" and others don't. I think experience is the best teacher. Seeing how your favorite songs do it and then learn from that. Economy of style - saying everything in the most efficient and dramatically moving way you can...Expressing what you want to say without "saying" it...sometimes things can be too "on the nose"... agreed, or if your lazy, just write bro country songs, any asshole can do that 8)
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Post by Rock Kennedy on May 19, 2014 6:28:55 GMT -6
The thing is, there really aren't any rules...ok - maybe there are parameters and tried and true formulas, but I don't think anyone can say, "That isn't correct." There are rhyme schemes that are tried and true - and I think that's because the human ear wants to phonically hear things rhyme - or maybe we're just used to hearing it...that's why some things sound "right" and others don't. I think experience is the best teacher. Seeing how your favorite songs do it and then learn from that. Economy of style - saying everything in the most efficient and dramatically moving way you can...Expressing what you want to say without "saying" it...sometimes things can be too "on the nose"... agreed, or if your lazy, just write bro country songs, any asshole can do that 8) I can't seem to and I've tried.
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Post by Rock Kennedy on May 19, 2014 18:17:22 GMT -6
The thing is, there really aren't any rules...ok - maybe there are parameters and tried and true formulas, but I don't think anyone can say, "That isn't correct." There are rhyme schemes that are tried and true - and I think that's because the human ear wants to phonically hear things rhyme - or maybe we're just used to hearing it...that's why some things sound "right" and others don't. I think experience is the best teacher. Seeing how your favorite songs do it and then learn from that. Economy of style - saying everything in the most efficient and dramatically moving way you can...Expressing what you want to say without "saying" it...sometimes things can be too "on the nose"... Well said. On the same topic, I got a chance recently to speak briefly with Gary Burr regarding "the rules." He said, "I learned them, now I know when to break them." I didn't mention it to him, but what he said reminded me of a quote by Nadia Boulanger, who was one of, if not the most, celebrated music teachers in history, having taught musical giants like Philip Glass, Burt Bacharach, Quincy Jones, and Aaron Copland. She said, "To study music, we must learn the rules. To create music, we must forget them."
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Post by tonycamphd on May 19, 2014 23:20:13 GMT -6
to me there are no rules, if it sounds good to ME, it is good as art, the old school definition of art is "of thy self", as soon as you ask the opinion of another, you are no longer the artist as much as a conformist, collaborator or salesman.
I do not mean that as a slight to anyone, it's all a matter of what you value, and of course, as always, it's JMO
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Post by cowboycoalminer on May 29, 2014 12:19:57 GMT -6
I don't think writing a song is much different than writing a creative story. I've never taken a songwriting coarse but did have creative writing in college. Loved that class. Had a good prof too. Jk keeps saying it above and it echoes the same thing I was taught in writing class: get to the point. Cut out every word that is unnessecary. That's sometimes harder to do in songwriting than in creative writing because of the rhyme scheme. But the idea is still the same.
My prof was big on this: don't pester the reader. Always be thinking of the reader as you write and get to the point. No one likes to stand and listen to long winded people talk and the same can be said for writers who break this rule.
I tried to read a novel a few months back and couldn't finish it for this reason. The writer took 10 pages to ramble on about something that could have been said in 1. He was trying to build suspense but instead, just pissed me off to the point I put the book down. This happens to bad songs too. People don't listen to the end on some because it rambles.
Another good writing tool I was taught was the fine art of eavesdropping. Everyone loves to eavesdrop on a good conversation. This can be a wonderful tool for songwriting as well. I gaurentee a song will be more interesting with the occasional I said, she said or he said. Think Hank and Wayland's "The Conversation". Impossible to turn off, doesn't matter if you like country or not I'll bet you'll listen to the end just to hear what is said.
Good thread.
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Post by henge on May 31, 2014 6:26:27 GMT -6
Another point is that some writers are stronger lyricists and some are stronger with music. I'm a music guy and struggle with pop lyrics. Just did a co write with a writer that whipped off some nice lyrics in an afternoon and it was great to have that burden lifted from my plate. geoff738 do you feel your a word guy or music guy...or both?
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Post by geoff738 on May 31, 2014 7:12:48 GMT -6
Another point is that some writers are stronger lyricists and some are stronger with music. I'm a music guy and struggle with pop lyrics. Just did a co write with a writer that whipped off some nice lyrics in an afternoon and it was great to have that burden lifted from my plate. geoff738 do you feel your a word guy or music guy...or both? Well, I struggle with both. But words are definitely a struggle to avoid cliche etc. I find when I'm out walking the dog sometimes the words seem to flow. Should figure out how to use my phone as a voice recorder - I'm pretty sure it must be able to do that. Anyhow, I think the fairly mindless nature of that task allows the mind to wander and for whatever reason I don't try to filter too much in the moment. For me, words and music don't usually come to me together if I'm sitting down with a guitar. I do sometimes hear complete(ish) ideas when I'm out walking though. Weird. Cheers, Geoff
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Post by henge on May 31, 2014 7:18:58 GMT -6
Another point is that some writers are stronger lyricists and some are stronger with music. I'm a music guy and struggle with pop lyrics. Just did a co write with a writer that whipped off some nice lyrics in an afternoon and it was great to have that burden lifted from my plate. geoff738 do you feel your a word guy or music guy...or both? Well, I struggle with both. But words are definitely a struggle to avoid cliche etc. I find when I'm out walking the dog sometimes the words seem to flow. Should figure out how to use my phone as a voice recorder - I'm pretty sure it must be able to do that. Anyhow, I think the fairly mindless nature of that task allows the mind to wander and for whatever reason I don't try to filter too much in the moment. For me, words and music don't usually come to me together if I'm sitting down with a guitar. I do sometimes hear complete(ish) ideas when I'm out walking though. Weird. Cheers, Geoff Funny, I once wrote a blog called my dog's butt. The premise was that great ideas fly out of my dogs butt because it seems I get my best ideas when walking my dog ( who's usually in front, but not so much anymore...she's getting old ;-( )!!LOL It really seems to be true that your mind can create when the body is doing something mundane. Still doesn't answer the question about workshops...I think they're good for networking.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 17:19:29 GMT -6
"dirt road, six pack, hank jr, party, truck, jacked up truck," Congrats John. You wrote your first Bro Country song. I knew you could do it.
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