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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 22, 2022 14:23:51 GMT -6
Avoid them. That is all.
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 23, 2022 20:07:45 GMT -6
Bummer. I did a few records with their founder’s old band way back when he was first getting the company started. Seemed like a good guy. What exactly happened? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 24, 2022 8:45:09 GMT -6
Bummer. I did a few records with their founder’s old band way back when he was first getting the company started. Seemed like a good guy. What exactly happened? I ordered a custom head on a white Evans head. He printed a black and shipped me that. Then tries to tell me that I made the mistake. Tells me I can ship it back at my expense and he will refund me minus the shipping charge and minus 25% printing fee. So it would cost me 65 bucks out of 125 to fix his mistake. Guy has a bad attitude. I hope he loses more than the $125 that I'm out. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 24, 2022 17:37:44 GMT -6
Bummer. I did a few records with their founder’s old band way back when he was first getting the company started. Seemed like a good guy. What exactly happened? I ordered a custom head on a white Evans head. He printed a black and shipped me that. Then tries to tell me that I made the mistake. Tells me I can ship it back at my expense and he will refund me minus the shipping charge and minus 25% printing fee. So it would cost me 65 bucks out of 125 to fix his mistake. Guy has a bad attitude. I hope he loses more than the $125 that I'm out. Oof, sucks. Was it Jim? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 24, 2022 18:34:33 GMT -6
I ordered a custom head on a white Evans head. He printed a black and shipped me that. Then tries to tell me that I made the mistake. Tells me I can ship it back at my expense and he will refund me minus the shipping charge and minus 25% printing fee. So it would cost me 65 bucks out of 125 to fix his mistake. Guy has a bad attitude. I hope he loses more than the $125 that I'm out. Oof, sucks. Was it Jim? Yes. Would have been easy for him to just make it right and print on a white head, like I ordered, but instead just throws a bunch of jabs my way. Not my kind of customer service. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 24, 2022 21:03:30 GMT -6
Yes. Would have been easy for him to just make it right and print on a white head, like I ordered, but instead just throws a bunch of jabs my way. Not my kind of customer service. Yeah, that's a bumout to hear. Sorry, man. |
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Post by allbuttonmode on Jul 28, 2022 4:30:49 GMT -6
I have known Jim personally for well over 10 years, and I'm also a customer of DrumArt.com.
I obviously do not know the circumstances of this incident, but I do know this: Jim is one of the most reliable and honest people I know. Basically the blueprint for the term "stand-up guy". He's an excellent businessman and bends over backwards to accommodate his customers. Since 99% of all communication happens online these days, I guess you have everything about this transaction on record? It'd be fairly easy to prove who is in the wrong here. Personally, I highly recommend DrumArt.com to anyone looking to get a custom drum head. |
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Post by drumartjim on Jul 28, 2022 8:54:38 GMT -6
Well, that's quite the thread title!  Jim from DrumART here. Thankfully I have many friends in the industry who let me know on the exceedingly rare occasion that someone posts a thread like this, so I'm thankful for the opportunity to reply. First, just to get this out of the way, the image attached at the bottom of this post is *exactly* the design that the OP created, approved and purchased through our HeadBuilder online drumhead design tool. As you can see, this is a color logo on a BLACK drumhead. I would encourage the OP to post a photo of the actual DrumART head he received as well. So, when we received his message that we shipped him the "wrong head," we were both surprised and confused. We went back to the saved design and confirmed that it was, indeed, a color logo on a black background. Apparently, the misunderstanding between what was ordered and what was received was in the choices offered on our website. At the risk of breaking my arm patting myself on the back, our HeadBuilder drumhead design tool (that the OP used to design and order his drumhead) is an advanced, purpose-built tool we created in-house for the sole and exclusive purpose of allowing customers to build complex, layered drumhead designs on our website. Included in that system is the ability to change background colors, add background images, layer images, modify transparency, add and edit text, logos, etc. Bottom line: it is BAD-ASS. It also includes drumhead-specific things like ports, port protectors, head types, head colors, etc. that a customer might want. And therein lies the rub: while the HeadBuilder has a large amount of flexibility and control, it also has some level of ambiguity built into it as a result. In the end, it seems that the OP missed the background color picker and assumed that simply picking a drumhead color superseded the WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) character of the HeadBuilder. So, while we make it clear on the website that the head you design is the head you will receive (and he received *exactly* the design he ordered), we did offer him a one-time "oops" discount to print a replacement on a white background at our cost for time and materials. Unfortunately, anything short of us eating the full cost of this misunderstanding was apparently not enough to avoid the "DrumArt.com can fuck off" thread to which I am replying today. Which is fine. With more than 100,000 drumheads printed for -- let's face it -- an at times "difficult" customer base of musicians and artists, we have come to learn that we're not going to please every single customer every single time. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, and we ALWAYS work to be open, honest and fair. At no time did I "throw a bunch of jabs" at the OP. But, as I have said in the past both publicly and privately, I did not get into business to accommodate unreasonable customers. So I don't. Ironically and incredibly, after tens of thousands of designs created and printed using the HeadBuilder, this was actually the first of TWO instances of similar confusion we had about head color vs. background color in the past month. Unprecedented, but then, we are busier than ever. The other customer understood the confusion and accepted our reprint offer, but it is still something we are working to correct. In the future, changing the head color from black to white will automatically change the background color displayed in the HeadBuilder to match the color of the head. This may seem like a simple fix, but like anything in Web development, one change can result in unintended problems down the line. Like, what happens when a user chooses a different head color *after* they have already changed the background color? Not super easy to deal with in a Web app. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read my long-winded reply to the colorful short-and-sweet original post. You can agree with how we do business or not and you can choose to do business with us or not as a result, but never let it be said that I do not run a company that is open, honest and direct with all our customers and prospective customers all the time. Cheers! --Jim.  |
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Post by christopher on Jul 28, 2022 9:40:49 GMT -6
Welcome Jim,
There’s no such thing as bad publicity, and now you’ve shot to #1 in my recommendation for drum art.
But I do sense this is a silly issue, in the grand scheme of your business. You won’t find too many sympathizers here, as this small of a purchase amounts to diddly nothing, sure not enough to pull some small-claims court style of Me vs Customer, I was right he was wrong.
He’s a customer, you go above and beyond to make it right! He tells his friends, they all send more business. That’s what you do! That’s what we all do here! Every single one of us is a business owner and we are constantly having to deal with much crazier demands
But since you have 100,000 orders under your belt you feel you don’t have to? Would Dave Grohl get the same run-around and defensive attitude from you?
“In the future, changing the head color from black to white will automatically change the background color displayed in the HeadBuilder to match the color of the head.”
^^^^ what does this mean? To me it appears there is a problem on your end.
And you are surprised someone doesn’t want to send you more money?
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Post by drumartjim on Jul 28, 2022 10:05:45 GMT -6
He’s a customer, you go above and beyond to make it right! He tells his friends, they send all send more business. That’s what you do! That’s what we all do here! Every single one of us is a business owner and we are constantly having to deal with much crazier demands Thanks for the welcome and for your perspective! Funny, I couldn't disagree more on this point. I get the impulse, but I have, do and will ALWAYS see my business as a partnership between me and my staff and our customers. I have not, do not and will never subscribe to the "customer is always right" philosophy, and I highly advocate to all business owners who will listen that this is a flawed way of looking at commerce that does nothing but lead to a race to the bottom. That said, there are many (most?) business owners who *do* run their businesses this way and do very well with it. In the end, I'll do me and you do you.  Otherwise, I'm not saying we don't need to accommodate every whim of every customer because we have over 100,000 of them, I'm saying we have over 100,000 of them because the people who choose to deal with us do so as a result of our openness and honesty (not to mention our quality, flexibility, technology, speed and prices). The ones who leave become the customers "read: problems" of our competitors which, in the end, I'm okay with. It may be a totally Machiavellian way of looking at it, but since we're all business owners here you know I'm not necessarily wrong.  Bottom line: you're 100% right that the amount adds up to just slightly north of zero, but I tend to make decisions on issues like this based on principle, for better or worse. We offered what I think was a fair solution. The OP disagreed and called us out publicly -- totally his right. I replied publicly -- totally my right. Agree or disagree, I feel better about addressing it. Thanks again, --Jim. |
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Post by christopher on Jul 28, 2022 10:45:09 GMT -6
A business is either growing or dying
You’re done growing. You’re off my list
All the bands I come in contact with: AVOID Jim
I will tell them to also tell others to avoid you
My guess, you are close to selling the biz to some poor dreamer who will take over the dying reigns
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Post by christopher on Jul 28, 2022 10:51:46 GMT -6
He’s a customer, you go above and beyond to make it right! He tells his friends, they send all send more business. That’s what you do! That’s what we all do here! Every single one of us is a business owner and we are constantly having to deal with much crazier demands Thanks for the welcome and for your perspective! Funny, I couldn't disagree more on this point. I get the impulse, but I have, do and will ALWAYS see my business as a partnership between me and my staff and our customers. I have not, do not and will never subscribe to the "customer is always right" philosophy, and I highly advocate to all business owners who will listen that this is a flawed way of looking at commerce that does nothing but lead to a race to the bottom. That said, there are many (most?) business owners who *do* run their businesses this way and do very well with it. In the end, I'll do me and you do you. Otherwise, I'm not saying we don't need to accommodate every whim of every customer because we have over 100,000 of them, I'm saying we have over 100,000 of them because the people who choose to deal with us do so as a result of our openness and honesty (not to mention our quality, flexibility, technology, speed and prices). The ones who leave become the customers "read: problems" of our competitors which, in the end, I'm okay with. It may be a totally Machiavellian way of looking at it, but since we're all business owners here you know I'm not necessarily wrong. Bottom line: you're 100% right that the amount adds up to just slightly north of zero, but I tend to make decisions on issues like this based on principle, for better or worse. We offered what I think was a fair solution. The OP disagreed and called us out publicly -- totally his right. I replied publicly -- totally my right. Agree or disagree, I feel better about addressing it. Thanks again, --Jim. Amazing just a tiny prod and true colors come out |
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2022 11:06:53 GMT -6
My son is trying to start a business. I've told him to treat his customers better than he would treat himself. To put them in a space above where you would put friends and family - even if they are idiots. Not sure he can do that, but his aim is to try. It's a good business practice IMO. And a reminder for all of us. Some do it, most do not. Customer service is #1 for me when I'm out looking for gear or services. When you find GREAT customer service in this day and age, it stands out like a shining beacon. Even a human answering the phone and being courteous is pretty shocking these days.
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Post by drumartjim on Jul 28, 2022 11:09:30 GMT -6
No need for a prod. My true colors are always out. Otherwise, good talk.  |
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Post by ericn on Jul 29, 2022 17:27:57 GMT -6
My son is trying to start a business. I've told him to treat his customers better than he would treat himself. To put them in a space above where you would put friends and family - even if they are idiots. Not sure he can do that, but his aim is to try. It's a good business practice IMO. And a reminder for all of us. Some do it, most do not. Customer service is #1 for me when I'm out looking for gear or services. When you find GREAT customer service in this day and age, it stands out like a shining beacon. Even a human answering the phone and being courteous is pretty shocking these days. Yup, you take the time solve the problem and eat it the cost. Why ? The cost of customer acquisition, your advertising, and time invested in getting the deal to begin with. There is bad publicity and this is it. Airing dirty laundry, even if the customer is totally in the wrong just leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many of your potential clients, they start thinking my god that could be me! Most don’t think this way but every move you make every word out of your mouth is selling your product. You also have to factor in the fact that the client you want has to deal with stuff like this every day and knows you just suck it up and eat it. |
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Post by ragan on Jul 30, 2022 1:12:18 GMT -6
Wait, so does this all boil down to “you select a drum head color, but that’s not necessarily what you get”?
This feels like a really tortured, drawn-out way of saying “our website has an ill-conceived feature ambiguity”.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 30, 2022 14:40:11 GMT -6
My dad was a successful businessman, all my uncles too, some of my friends and colleagues are in business also.
Their simple golden rule - "the customer is always, always right" (unless it's a nefarious claim)
The only business's my wife and my kids and I spent our hard earned money with are the business's that treat us
with this attitude .... we are always right.
IMHO the long term success and growth of a business relies on it.
A small issue can end up costing 10 or even 100 fold greater cost in lost business and reputation.
Imagine the thread reading.
DrumArt.com these guys are amazing.
A mistake was made ordering my drum head but they got it sorted instantly and at no cost to me.
I highly recommend these guys they're great.
Reads better to me - worth $125 no?
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 2, 2022 11:43:22 GMT -6
He’s a customer, you go above and beyond to make it right! He tells his friends, they send all send more business. That’s what you do! That’s what we all do here! Every single one of us is a business owner and we are constantly having to deal with much crazier demands Thanks for the welcome and for your perspective! Funny, I couldn't disagree more on this point. I get the impulse, but I have, do and will ALWAYS see my business as a partnership between me and my staff and our customers. I have not, do not and will never subscribe to the "customer is always right" philosophy, and I highly advocate to all business owners who will listen that this is a flawed way of looking at commerce that does nothing but lead to a race to the bottom. That said, there are many (most?) business owners who *do* run their businesses this way and do very well with it. In the end, I'll do me and you do you. Otherwise, I'm not saying we don't need to accommodate every whim of every customer because we have over 100,000 of them, I'm saying we have over 100,000 of them because the people who choose to deal with us do so as a result of our openness and honesty (not to mention our quality, flexibility, technology, speed and prices). The ones who leave become the customers "read: problems" of our competitors which, in the end, I'm okay with. It may be a totally Machiavellian way of looking at it, but since we're all business owners here you know I'm not necessarily wrong. Bottom line: you're 100% right that the amount adds up to just slightly north of zero, but I tend to make decisions on issues like this based on principle, for better or worse. We offered what I think was a fair solution. The OP disagreed and called us out publicly -- totally his right. I replied publicly -- totally my right. Agree or disagree, I feel better about addressing it. Thanks again, --Jim. HMMmmmm.....
Well, regardless of what caused the initial problem, it seems to me that if you have 100,000 customers you certainly should be able to replace the head and chalk it up to 'Customer Relations", which is just good business sense. And he did uncover a flaw in you mechanism for head design. Some 'principles" can hurt you more than help....
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Post by gwlee7 on Aug 2, 2022 17:59:02 GMT -6
I told the folks that worked in my little grocery store, “while customers may not always be right, they certainly always have the money. Our job is to try and get them to leave some with us.”
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 2, 2022 20:37:33 GMT -6
Wait, so does this all boil down to “you select a drum head color, but that’s not necessarily what you get”? This feels like a really tortured, drawn-out way of saying “our website has an ill-conceived feature ambiguity”. Exactly right. I have artwork that's a 300ppi png without a background. I popped on the site, selected a white Evans head, and placed my art. I expected my properly formatted image file to be placed on a white head like selected. Since I didn't want a background printed, I didn't choose a background color. If they had sent me a white Evans head that was fully printed with a black background, he could at least make a case that I was in the wrong. That's not the case though. It is my backgroundless image printed on a different head than I selected. No disputing that. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 2, 2022 20:42:06 GMT -6
Hey drumartjim, since you feel the need to chime in and give your perspective, I give you permission to post screenshots of our email conversation. Let's let everyone see how that conversation went down and consider how they would have reacted. After you sent your initial response to my inquiry, I checked out the 1-star reviews on your site, saw your public responses, and realized I wasn't going to get anywhere with you. It is what it is. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 7, 2022 4:39:04 GMT -6
Idiots are idiots....
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Post by plinker on Aug 8, 2022 23:32:59 GMT -6
Wait, so does this all boil down to “you select a drum head color, but that’s not necessarily what you get”? This feels like a really tortured, drawn-out way of saying “our website has an ill-conceived feature ambiguity”.
I think that about sums it up.
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Post by plinker on Aug 9, 2022 11:37:55 GMT -6
And therein lies the rub: while the HeadBuilder has a large amount of flexibility and control, it also has some level of ambiguity built into it as a result. In the end, it seems that the OP missed the background color picker and assumed that simply picking a drumhead color superseded the WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) character of the HeadBuilder. If you realize that your awesome tool "has some level of abiguity built into it", then that is your problem, drumartjim , and up to you to resolve.
You should have noticed the conflict between him specifying a white head, and then having a black background on the image, and contacted him for clarification -- but you didn't.
Another reviewer provided notes on his order that you ignored. Your response to his review was WYSIWYG, and you left it at that. Why provide a notes section to the customer, if you aren't going to read it?
Yet another reviewer selected to add a port hole, but didn't provide dimensions, assuming there was a default size. I've been through your website, and can see where a person might assume that given the how the options are laid out. However, instead of contacting the buyer about possible confusion you just made the head and shipped it. Your response to his review was "well, you didn't specify a port hole size, so I didn't cut one."
The Drumart.com business ethos is, as he implies, "The boss is always right."
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