bob
Full Member
Posts: 32 
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Post by bob on Feb 5, 2023 12:41:05 GMT -6
Hi I'm finishing off a pretty involved build that's long since blown my budget clean out the water. I'm yet to do the most damage and go for one of the fancier 48 channel consoles which is going to pretty much empty the money pot. The building is concrete, and the isolation has been dealt with. I'm also going with thickish (6-8") rockwool panels all over the place, along with cable trays running along the ceiling, so all audio wiring is to some extent movable and upgradable... I'm not burying stuff into walls, just running everything tidily along walls and ceilings. I have holes through walls which I'll stuff(with socks, kittens...whatever) to seal, but will be unsealable as required. So I've been thinking long and hard about it, and I've almost managed to persuade myself that diy'ing 100+ lines all over the place and terminating everything at patch panels in every room and at the patchbay isn't the way to go. Rather, I've managed to persuade myself that going cheap with snakes such as these, fastened to the walls, is the way to go for me. www.thomann.de/intl/the_sssnake_mc_248_multicore.htmI never cheap out on cable that gets abuse or a lot of mechanical stress, but provided it is correctly spec'd and the shielding is up to snuff, I'm not one to lose sleep over not having premium mic lines running everywhere. I can always add a few lines of premium mogami or whatever if I feel I'm missing something. Does this seem like a dumb idea? Three or four or five snakes would pretty much get the whole studio covered and come in somewhere around €1000... almost seems too good to be true. I have no idea how these things are wired, whether shields are common or individual, etc etc... Am I missing something here or is this indeed the way to go? thanks, rob |
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 5, 2023 14:45:34 GMT -6
If I were in your shoes I’d look into two things:
1) used snakes on eBay/reverb. I’ve found some excellent deals on used snakes, patch panels, patch bays etc
2) Cat5e audio snakes. You can run Cat5e/Cat6 cable and buy some audio breakout boxes or rack mount xlr panels for them. Cat5e is pretty cheap compared to audio cable, you can run 4 audio channels on a single cable and the cable runs will be much easier.
Hope that helps.
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Post by ragan on Feb 5, 2023 14:56:16 GMT -6
My take: expensive wire is a f&*#ing racket, so definitely don't worry about the piece of copper that will/won't get the huge mark-up depending on whose name is on the jacket.
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Post by drbill on Feb 5, 2023 18:18:26 GMT -6
Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into the studio. Personally, I wouldn't cheap out on the wiring. It's the life blood that gets your signals routed where you need them. I've redone wiring and patch bays multiple times. Always wishing I'd gone 100% every time I had to redo something. After 5 or so times of re-doing things, I finally went 100%. Paid once, and will never regret it - although it WAS expensive. BTW, I did most of the work myself so I could get grounds and such dialed to my exact specs.
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Post by svart on Feb 6, 2023 7:28:43 GMT -6
1. Never had a single problem with audio quality using "cheap" snakes as long as the connectors are decent. Had a lot of trouble with cheap connectors tarnishing or breaking or the soldering being poor and breaking.
2. Had LOTS of trouble working with cheap snakes when trying to replace connectors and/or fix them. They usually have bonded insulation where the outer insulator over each channel is seemingly stuck to the individual conductors making it very hard to properly strip the wires, etc. Also, the thermoplastic used tends to melt at very low temps making it hard to solder properly without melting the insluators.
3. Agree that used snakes are a MUCH better deal, but be prepared that there is a good chance that it might need fixing.
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Post by christopher on Feb 7, 2023 10:31:09 GMT -6
Live snakes work fine. For rock I will usually prefer more mics- even cheap mics- over less mics/ less channels but higher quality wire. For me part of the fun is getting to put up some experiment mics after the main ones are up. For folk and acoustic though, I’d be happier with lower channel count and better mics/wire and connectors. Connectors are really where I’ve noticed some total crap- they can look right, shiny, but those imported pins or solder must have impurities causing resistance or capacitance or something, I can’t explain it but I’ve been upset by it.. It won’t matter in the final product though, once drums and guitars are smashed and streaming.
I agree it has to do with financial priorities. Like if everything else isn’t being held back by budget, then definitely nice to use high quality wire, even if it’s less channels. CAT cable I like the idea because it has to transmit at no loss, you get a lot of feet super cheap, it fits through tiny holes in walls and can be fished easily. I’ve had great luck with one brand of ebay cheapo XLR connector out there- but they changed their design years ago. I’d look into Rean or better. And those CAT breakout boxes Tbone mentioned are ideal.. it’s a bit annoying to terminate CAT (need tool and tester).. but very clean and satisfying when done.
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bob
Full Member
Posts: 32
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Post by bob on Feb 8, 2023 3:54:11 GMT -6
Oh wow ok.. seems pretty unanimous that I’m looking at this the wrong way.. I’d been through all permutations loads of times.. -Premium cable into proper nice install panels -Cat5e into panels -cat5e to off-the-shelf breakout boxes All involve a bunch of orders and hours of sitting there soldering, and end up costing a fair few thousands more than the Thomann snakes. The thought of pulling the lot ready out of a box and screwing it into the wall has been quite a relief.. I’m expecting to have to do a fair amount of work at the patch bay.. I’ve got a bunch of outboard, and expect to be going db25 patchbay, so there’s that side of things to contend with.. The console manufacturer specs an 8 unit tt patchbay, but I’m really; really hoping to get that with the mixer. If not I’ll be going nice cable in the control room for sure, as well as higher-end patchbays Am not looking forward to terminating a ton of db25’s.. So.. in the grand scheme of things… if I just stick four of those Thomann live snakes up against the walls and have them gather at the patchbay, with every option in the world to upgrade as/if required, can’t I have something I can work with immediately and evolve as required? I promise I’ll run a few fancy channels separately into the main areas for vocal lines and stuff  If I even consider doing a “proper” install at this stage my family’s going hungry for a while so it’s not really a great idea, we’re pretty skinny already |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
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Post by ericn on Feb 11, 2023 22:49:22 GMT -6
Check your local codes, a live snake inside a wall my not meet electrical / fire code, you may get away with it in conduit, but if that’s the case it maybe easier and cheaper to buy new bulk snake cable. I know quite a few who have bought larger quantities of a smaller input count snake and used multiple runs where they would normally use a larger snake, but by buying more of the smaller cable they get a larger discount.
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Post by christopher on Feb 13, 2023 12:15:24 GMT -6
Maybe it would be ideal if one of the DIY kit makers offered a patch plate PCB for all PCB mount components.. with enough ethernet jacks for 24 channels and some returns. Then we could even use those cheap Neutrik connectors that are less than $1.. and decide how many male and female we want, run CAT each way.
Man it’s so much faster to terminate a CAT cable than XLR. And Soldering to PCB without having to strip and prep each lead, what a fantasy
Maybe put your effort into CAD and inventing it?
I don’t blame anyone who sees those low prices and dreads the soldering workload
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
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Post by ericn on Feb 13, 2023 12:52:57 GMT -6
Maybe it would be ideal if one of the DIY kit makers offered a patch plate PCB for all PCB mount components.. with enough ethernet jacks for 24 channels and some returns. Then we could even use those cheap Neutrik connectors that are less than $1.. and decide how many male and female we want, run CAT each way. Man it’s so much faster to terminate a CAT cable than XLR. And Soldering to PCB without having to strip and prep each lead, what a fantasy Maybe put your effort into CAD and inventing it? I don’t blame anyone who sees those low prices and dreads the soldering workload I’ll be honest if Dante products were not a small fortune I would be Dante based. Live I’ve gone Cobranet, sure it’s Windows 7 based but it’s cheap! For a couple of Bar installs I have used cheap analog to Cat 5 Baums with their inverse. It works then a Soundweb 3088 for DSP. |
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Post by plinker on Mar 12, 2023 22:49:33 GMT -6
bob If you are interested in going the CAT cable route, please see my thread here: realgearonline.com/thread/11107/approach-running-breakouts-db25-connectorsYou'll need a specific type of CAT6 cable, SSTP/SFTP, to ensure the phantom power is sent to active mics. That plus the REDCO boxes will get you there!
You will not find lower noise cable for mic/line signals than CAT6 SSTP/SFTP -- and the price cannot be beat!
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