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Post by audiospecific on Jan 16, 2024 4:38:57 GMT -6
Looking at the first tube and drawing the grid circuit. It looks like they didn't terminate the filter, and use a different buffer and went unbalanced into the circuit. This changes a lot of the circuit's function equation, as the filter is not a separate unit from the buffer like in the original design. So the next step will be finding the proper output impedance and terminate with a transformer that can be used as an innerstage. So the 10K resistor they terminated in the front is the filter's average operational impedance which doesn't do an effective job in current distribution in the filter compared to having the input and output terminations that set the operational impedance as the beginning of the filter is low impedance and increases through the filter.
So I have to find out terminating at 420-520 ohms in the beginning will give me the filter and at the end I'll terminate at 100K for testing.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 21, 2024 6:36:47 GMT -6
Taking a step back and looking at the other "clone", the Warm audio WA-EPQ They basically used a simular design as the Klark, but with a different power supply. They ended up with a better build because they didn't use surface mount technology anywhere. Even though the only critical part would be the tube stage if the right surface mount parts are used in the filter.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 21, 2024 13:33:18 GMT -6
The Klark tube circuit is total junk because they installed tiny general purpose surface mounts, that you can't install the ones that don't suck the harmonics out of the signal. I personally don't like surface mount in tube gear because there are not many that don't leave it sterile and of course, all anton-perry smd types are too big physically. Which is the best type to use in tube circuits.
So before I rip apart the front end all the way, I'm going to install the original transformer back, and move the tube circuit and install it on the back using normal through hole parts. Then I'll do an A/B test and hear how it sounds with proper parts assembled.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 23, 2024 12:27:53 GMT -6
As I'm finishing up drawing the output and driver stages, I've been looking at their output transformer, particularly its feedback winding. On the original transformer there was 2 600 ohm center tapped windings on the secondary, one was used as the output and one was used for feedback in the cathode circuits on the first buffer. Their transformer does not have the center tap on the feedback winding to copy the original circuit. The other function of this winding was to force a current sink so the input stays in differential mode as there is only two tubes that were designed to self bias and stay differential in circuit with a single power supply. The 6SN7 and the 6SL7. Others require either a current sink by a feedback winding or ccs, or combination CVS and plate output transformer.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 26, 2024 2:11:24 GMT -6
Using special resistors is really not necessary. I use some special resistors in my RF designs for specific reasons such as some of my signals are in the single mV range, but in audio it's mostly just audiophile nonsense to use special resistors. Regular carbon film are fine since even at single mV ranges, resistor noise is still miniscule compared. Carbon comp resistors are where the problems arise, but only really under voltage stress.
You act like this is your 'creation' . Is it? Because if it is you are clueless in selection of parts.
Surface mount in tube circuits makes it a garbage build.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 26, 2024 2:16:59 GMT -6
audiospecific just reading through the thread, hey really your comment here isn't very constructive, svart is very knowledgable in this area and his comments have merit. He has a lot of credibility here on this site, based on that expertise and his building of some mastering level converters, which were purchased and appreciated by many here. Debating design and parts decisions is fine, calling into question someone's expertise, when they clearly have it, actually looks bad on you, not svart. just keeping it real.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 26, 2024 9:22:08 GMT -6
audiospecific just reading through the thread, hey really your comment here isn't very constructive, svart is very knowledgable in this area and his comments have merit. He has a lot of credibility here on this site, based on that expertise and his building of some mastering level converters, which were purchased and appreciated by many here. Debating design and parts decisions is fine, calling into question someone's expertise, when they clearly have it, actually looks bad on you, not svart. just keeping it real.
I'm tired of people downplaying me at every turn. Creating a master level converter is way different than a tube circuit. Even though if I was set up and equipped to do it I would have produce some converters. But to let you know, a converter circuit has less difficulty than creating a tube circuit. Any Associate of Science or Bachelor graduate in electronics or electronic technology could build a master grade converter. Problem is educated electronics engineers don't know a lot of the construction decisions and technicians of tube gear because they were never given that info. So of course, everything I will say will be a paradigm shift and might contradict things people adopted as convention.
So I am going to say things that are way out of their knowledge and I'm sure they are going to question things. But since you pointed out this one, I will spend the time to explain what you put in a tube circuit, in its construction and layout can impact the circuit operation and performance. Cathode and grid elements of a tube have electromagnetic and inductive properties and the incorrectly constructed part can radiate this into the circuit.
As for me, I will build tube gear on my own and will continue after going to the next level which will be getting the machinery and building vacuum tubes like they used to make them. Since the artistry of designing the tube has been lost in the corporate sector. If it wasn't, then people wouldn't be looking for NOS tubes for that reason.
Using regular surface mounts and the way they are typically laid out is not going to yield a nice sounding tube circuit. And they at times probably negatively impact discrete solid state designs. That is why I question their use in audio circuits in the pro audio world to begin with.
What I'm doing with this modding procedure is troubleshooting why sticking a different tube doesn't change harmonics as well as why their design doesn't perform as well as it should. Surface mounts definitely come into play with the tube section. The question becomes is the surface mount in the filter are correct. Because using the wrong capacitor type regardless if its surface mount or leaded device will negatively impact the passive filter as well. Problem is identifying them. After I separate the signal currents with an innerstage transformer, I will be able to determine if the filter is okay or not and its issues was from grid leakage imposing into the non-isolated filter. Which this design requires transformer isolation on both sides of the filter. Normally when an innerstage transformer is not used an op amp is deployed for signal current isolation.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 26, 2024 10:16:35 GMT -6
thx, but we are misunderstanding each other.
I am not questioning your knowledge, I was asking you to respect svart’s.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 26, 2024 10:38:48 GMT -6
thx, but we are misunderstanding each other. I am not questioning your knowledge, I was asking you to respect svart’s. Never really questioned svart's. I understand where he's coming from and even him questioned what they used in the front end. Because its not the correct size of resistors for the input transformer. They set up a 600 ohm transformer on a 300 ohm input circuit.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 7, 2024 12:18:07 GMT -6
So, audiospecific - I'm saying this publicly, so everyone will know what's on the up and up. I've been noticing your posting more and more - and it's often condescending, abrasive and arrogant. This is your last warning. |
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Post by audiospecific on Feb 13, 2024 9:31:06 GMT -6
So, audiospecific - I'm saying this publicly, so everyone will know what's on the up and up. I've been noticing your posting more and more - and it's often condescending, abrasive and arrogant. This is your last warning. No offense, but nothing is perfect. Even me. I'm sorry.
To me, there is nothing magical about a piece of vintage gear and copies either comes close to the design or fail miserably like the EQP-KT.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 16, 2024 12:42:57 GMT -6
I'm not asking you to be perfect, just to not be a condescending jerk.
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Post by audiospecific on Feb 18, 2024 5:31:45 GMT -6
I'm not asking you to be perfect, just to not be a condescending jerk. I apologize that my negative criticism about things offends you. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 18, 2024 10:34:30 GMT -6
I'm not asking you to be perfect, just to not be a condescending jerk. I apologize that my negative criticism about things offends you. Man, you aren’t getting it |
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Post by audiospecific on Feb 18, 2024 13:36:58 GMT -6
I apologize that my negative criticism about things offends you. Man, you aren’t getting it Its hard to make up without a frame of reference. Just because I don't agree with other tech/engineers means very little in the scientific electronics world where there several paths or solutions to problems.
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Post by audiospecific on Feb 18, 2024 13:41:40 GMT -6
thx, but we are misunderstanding each other. I am not questioning your knowledge, I was asking you to respect svart’s.
I have my own opinion and so does svart
I'm keeping it more real
I see how you all play now
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 18, 2024 14:20:03 GMT -6
Nobody here is playing, stop being dismissive and understand what we are saying.
Earlier on, here is what you said to svart, who has significant expertise in rfi and gear design and building.
When he questioned your statements you referred to him as “clueless”. How was that respectful?
“You act like this is your 'creation' .
Is it?
Because if it is you are clueless in selection of parts”
To be equally blunt, it was you who was acting cluelessly about another poster’s area of professional expertise.
You could have said, we disagree but how do you come by that opinion, and we could have had a better dialog.
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Post by audiospecific on Feb 19, 2024 6:50:36 GMT -6
Nobody here is playing, stop being dismissive and understand what we are saying. Earlier on, here is what you said to svart, who has significant expertise in rfi and gear design and building. When he questioned your statements you referred to him as “clueless”. How was that respectful? “You act like this is your 'creation' . Is it? Because if it is you are clueless in selection of parts” To be equally blunt, it was you who was acting cluelessly about another poster’s area of professional expertise. You could have said, we disagree but how do you come by that opinion, and we could have had a better dialog.
Well if you really want me to question Svart, I would ask him what sector of RF industry he came from. Since carbon comp resistors were banned/outlawed in consumer equipment over 60 years ago because they catch on fire when they fail, and cause the house to catch on fire and all of the industrial sectors afterwards banned use of them too. That is why there is a ton of them circulating around. So I would ask him who would still use a fire hazard resistor now since there are several different flame/fireproof high voltage resistors designed to replace them.
That would be my question for him and his 'recommendations'.
There is always a method for my madness even though it might not make sense until the underlying logic surfaces for others.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 19, 2024 7:23:10 GMT -6
No one is saying you are mad: just that you could express yourself differently.
We, have worked hard here, to not be another Gearspace, meaning, we respect differences of opinion and agree that we can disagree without being disagreeable.
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Post by audiospecific on Feb 20, 2024 6:26:25 GMT -6
No one is saying you are mad: just that you could express yourself differently. We, have worked hard here, to not be another Gearspace, meaning, we respect differences of opinion and agree that we can disagree without being disagreeable. side comments on this post is not welcomed.
I really don't like why you guys chimed in on this thread and it show how you guys truly are regardless of excuse.
And its probably why Dan Left.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2024 6:44:38 GMT -6
No one is saying you are mad: just that you could express yourself differently. We, have worked hard here, to not be another Gearspace, meaning, we respect differences of opinion and agree that we can disagree without being disagreeable. side comments on this post is not welcomed.
I really don't like why you guys chimed in on this thread and it show how you guys truly are regardless of excuse.
And its probably why Dan Left.
It’s an open forum, anybody can chime in, especially when the poster is being rude, you seem oblivious to this ? |
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Post by ragan on Feb 20, 2024 9:28:57 GMT -6
No one is saying you are mad: just that you could express yourself differently. We, have worked hard here, to not be another Gearspace, meaning, we respect differences of opinion and agree that we can disagree without being disagreeable. side comments on this post is not welcomed.
I really don't like why you guys chimed in on this thread and it show how you guys truly are regardless of excuse.
And its probably why Dan Left.
Yeah, you’re right. Why, I wouldn't blame you if you just said to hell with it and left yourself, you know? Happy trails. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 20, 2024 10:08:22 GMT -6
No one is saying you are mad: just that you could express yourself differently. We, have worked hard here, to not be another Gearspace, meaning, we respect differences of opinion and agree that we can disagree without being disagreeable. side comments on this post is not welcomed. I really don't like why you guys chimed in on this thread and it show how you guys truly are regardless of excuse. And its probably why Dan Left.
You’re insufferable. There’s always Gearslutz for you. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 20, 2024 10:09:02 GMT -6
side comments on this post is not welcomed. I really don't like why you guys chimed in on this thread and it show how you guys truly are regardless of excuse. And its probably why Dan Left.
Yeah, you’re right. Why, I wouldn't blame you if you just said to hell with it and left yourself, you know? Happy trails. Not necessary |
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Post by svart on Feb 20, 2024 12:02:24 GMT -6
Nobody here is playing, stop being dismissive and understand what we are saying. Earlier on, here is what you said to svart, who has significant expertise in rfi and gear design and building. When he questioned your statements you referred to him as “clueless”. How was that respectful? “You act like this is your 'creation' . Is it? Because if it is you are clueless in selection of parts” To be equally blunt, it was you who was acting cluelessly about another poster’s area of professional expertise. You could have said, we disagree but how do you come by that opinion, and we could have had a better dialog.
Well if you really want me to question Svart, I would ask him what sector of RF industry he came from. Since carbon comp resistors were banned/outlawed in consumer equipment over 60 years ago because they catch on fire when they fail, and cause the house to catch on fire and all of the industrial sectors afterwards banned use of them too. That is why there is a ton of them circulating around. So I would ask him who would still use a fire hazard resistor now since there are several different flame/fireproof high voltage resistors designed to replace them.
That would be my question for him and his 'recommendations'.
There is always a method for my madness even though it might not make sense until the underlying logic surfaces for others.
If you re-read what I said, I mentioned "carbon FILM" as suitable for audio work, as much as any esoteric wire-wound or metal-film is. I mentioned "Carbon COMP" as an aside because people still seek them out for guitar amps and authentic clone builds because they believe there is "tone" in them.. But we both know that they drift badly and voltage through them must be strongly considered as well. The point is that you can whatever you want, but there is little to no "magic" in resistors at all. Almost all of the "noise" aspect in resistors has been grossly overstated. And yes, I work in HIGH SPEED RF, so very small amounts of noise are critical in a lot of designs I've worked on. Some of our multi-GHz bandwidth signals are no more than a few mV in amplitude, so noise floor is crucial. Even then we usually just use thick-film resistors, not even delving into the thin-film realm, because resistor noise levels are absolutely swamped by just about everything else including power-supply noise. I've also worked in power generation, video transmission, audio designs, etc. I'm no master or expert, but I'm well versed in a lot of stuff. But I've also been building audio gear for 30 years in some form or another and I've studied and experimented with just about every aspect of audio performance there is, especially chasing "Tone" via resistors and caps many years back before realizing that I was looking for something that didn't exist. Honestly, I really don't care if you're dismissive of my opinions. I wasn't even going to reply to you anymore, but I saw that you're still dragging me into your arguments and decided to at least answer your "question". |
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