|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 28, 2024 12:47:04 GMT -6
This isn't in studio build because it's the furnace in my living room. Here's the deal... this thing is outrageously loud. The closet is right in my living room and is probably like 75db right at conversational frequency.
So I have to replace it anyway and I'm wondering if an electric furnace would be quieter. The reason being that I'm pretty sure that would allow me to seal off the door (slotted door currently) and just try to soundproof the crap out of it.
I'm in Texas though so gas is cheap and electricity is expensive and electric furnace is about $2k more than gas. It would be a bummer to spend more money only to find out that the sound insulation on the door made no difference.
Thoughts?
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Oct 28, 2024 20:14:52 GMT -6
This isn't in studio build because it's the furnace in my living room. Here's the deal... this thing is outrageously loud. The closet is right in my living room and is probably like 75db right at conversational frequency. So I have to replace it anyway and I'm wondering if an electric furnace would be quieter. The reason being that I'm pretty sure that would allow me to seal off the door (slotted door currently) and just try to soundproof the crap out of it. I'm in Texas though so gas is cheap and electricity is expensive and electric furnace is about $2k more than gas. It would be a bummer to spend more money only to find out that the sound insulation on the door made no difference. Thoughts? Find a good HVAC supplier! They will have the best understanding of what you can do lower the SPL. I know simply moving the furnace and plenum from the dinng room to the other side of the wall filling the wall with insulation brought it down about 12dB in Galveston.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 28, 2024 20:36:56 GMT -6
This isn't in studio build because it's the furnace in my living room. Here's the deal... this thing is outrageously loud. The closet is right in my living room and is probably like 75db right at conversational frequency. So I have to replace it anyway and I'm wondering if an electric furnace would be quieter. The reason being that I'm pretty sure that would allow me to seal off the door (slotted door currently) and just try to soundproof the crap out of it. I'm in Texas though so gas is cheap and electricity is expensive and electric furnace is about $2k more than gas. It would be a bummer to spend more money only to find out that the sound insulation on the door made no difference. Thoughts? Find a good HVAC supplier! They will have the best understanding of what you can do lower the SPL. I know simply moving the furnace and plenum from the dinng room to the other side of the wall filling the wall with insulation brought it down about 12dB in Galveston. See that's the thing, the HVAC guy we're working with owes us a $2k credit for another thing so we're stuck with him. Good guy but doesn't seem to understand this very well. He's like "yeah, electric is quieter but most of the sound is the air moving through the vents, you'll still need vents." And I'm sorry, that just doesn't seem to be true. I open the closet door and this thing is loud AF. And the door is slotted so it's basically blocking zero sound. It's slotted for fire code reasons. He did verify that fire code wouldn't prevent us from putting massive layers of insulation and mass on the door if it was electric. He just seemed skeptical that that would make a difference. Sadly moving the unit to a more sensible place is cost prohibitive because of where the ducts run.
|
|
|
Post by keymod on Oct 29, 2024 6:18:38 GMT -6
The heating element for an electric furnace will be a very large load depending on size of house. Typically 60amps, 240 volts here in the Northeast. Can your service handle that increase?
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Oct 29, 2024 11:18:56 GMT -6
Try a mini split maybe?
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 29, 2024 15:42:06 GMT -6
It's for the whole house. And yeah, it's not a small place. But the upside is that we're in Texas so the furnace only needs to be turned on a few times per year. Now, I say it only NEEDS to be turned on a few times a year but I have a wife and more daughters than I care to count so it ACTUALLY comes for a few hours per day from Dec - Jan.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 29, 2024 17:43:48 GMT -6
Buy more tube gear!! Use it extensively in December / January!!! Problem solved.
PS - electric heating sucks compared to natural gas / propane.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 29, 2024 17:45:05 GMT -6
Buy more tube gear!! Use it extensively in December / January!!! Problem solved. PS - electric heating sucks compared to natural gas / propane. I told my wife "I'm gonna post this on RGO and see what those guys think." She just goes... "uh-oh." That said... this is a great suggestion!
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 29, 2024 18:15:43 GMT -6
Buy more tube gear!! Use it extensively in December / January!!! Problem solved. PS - electric heating sucks compared to natural gas / propane. I told my wife "I'm gonna post this on RGO and see what those guys think." She just goes... "uh-oh." That said... this is a great suggestion! Might be cheaper than a furnace too!!!! Last time I checked, our dual unit system - two, on on the N side of the house, and one on the S side - was getting old and it's about $40k to replace.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 29, 2024 18:49:49 GMT -6
I told my wife "I'm gonna post this on RGO and see what those guys think." She just goes... "uh-oh." That said... this is a great suggestion! Might be cheaper than a furnace too!!!! Last time I checked, our dual unit system - two, on on the N side of the house, and one on the S side - was getting old and it's about $40k to replace. We're getting quoted $12k or so but we're not looking at very much power. 2500sq ft in TX. Doesn't take much heat to make it too hot.
|
|
|
Post by doubledog on Oct 30, 2024 7:41:06 GMT -6
I think a new unit will likely be quieter either way you go. The gas version is probably going to save you money overall (mine is gas too but up in the attic). One thing you might look at is that some of the newer units have multi-speed motors (as an option). Of course that will probably cost more too, but my understanding is that while it is mostly for efficiency, you might find that if it runs slightly longer at a lower speed, it's also quieter overall? btw, you can still get a free quote from just about any HVAC person out there... might be worthwhile to get second/third opinion or other ideas? even if you go with your guy that owes you credit...
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Oct 30, 2024 8:52:00 GMT -6
My gas furnace is on the other side of a wall from my studio and it's not a problem. I wasn't able to do extreme sound isolation when I built this place, but I have rockwool in the walls (including between the studio and the utility closet where the furnace is), I used 5/8" sheetrock and put acoustic caulk on every stud/joist before the rock was attached. There are times when I'm tracking some quiet, acoustic picking or something and I intentionally turn the furnace off, but it's generally not something I worry about when working in the studio. All that to say, maybe your particular gas furnace is just loud? Got any friends with gas furnaces that you could go, like, audition while they're running? I put this furnace in in 2011, fwiw. So not super new, but not super old. How old is yours?
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 30, 2024 8:59:24 GMT -6
My gas furnace is on the other side of a wall from my studio and it's not a problem. I wasn't able to do extreme sound isolation when I built this place, but I have rockwool in the walls (including between the studio and the utility closet where the furnace is), I used 5/8" sheetrock and put acoustic caulk on every stud/joist before the rock was attached. There are times when I'm tracking some quiet, acoustic picking or something and I intentionally turn the furnace off, but it's generally not something I worry about when working in the studio. All that to say, maybe your particular gas furnace is just loud? Got any friends with gas furnaces that you could go, like, audition while they're running? I put this furnace in in 2011, fwiw. So not super new, but not super old. How old is yours? Well it's pretty old. But the bigger problem is its location. It's in a closet that is like 3 feet away from the sitting area. And the closet, as mentioned, has a slotted door for ventilation. So with electric that door could be replaced with a solid door. Envision trying to have a conversation with someone with a furnace fan blowing full title a few feet away. It's also the fan for the AC unit so 9 months out of the year we're SOL but maybe there can be peace in the winter?
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Nov 4, 2024 18:21:13 GMT -6
Might be cheaper than a furnace too!!!! Last time I checked, our dual unit system - two, on on the N side of the house, and one on the S side - was getting old and it's about $40k to replace. We're getting quoted $12k or so but we're not looking at very much power. 2500sq ft in TX. Doesn't take much heat to make it too hot. Yeah But I remember how well houses in TX are insulated! Remember the furnace might not see much use but when you’re running the AC in the summer the blower is! The Blower is your noise source.
|
|
|
Post by doubledog on Nov 5, 2024 9:36:29 GMT -6
We're getting quoted $12k or so but we're not looking at very much power. 2500sq ft in TX. Doesn't take much heat to make it too hot. for $12K that sounds like the entire HVAC system (I got some quotes earlier this year as one of mine is 25 years old now - the original for the house). One thing to note is that at the end of this year they transition from selling units with R410a (they banned production of R22 aka Freon, after 2020) to another new refrigerant (mostly R454B in the US). As I understand that has all new installation requirements because it is actually flammable... which also means that the prices are guaranteed to go up (to cover all the extra training for the HVAC install/service folks and because did I mention it is flammable?). Although to be fair, it's been conveniently re-classified as "mildly flammable". I know I can't wait (but I will wait because I honestly don't want to replace a working system if I don't have to so I'm going to wait until it takes it's last breath...). The 25 y/o unit I have still uses R22 and last I saw a gallon of that (which is either reclaimed or old stock now) is over $250. So once it leaks, it's pretty expensive to try to fill it again.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 5, 2024 11:15:31 GMT -6
We're getting quoted $12k or so but we're not looking at very much power. 2500sq ft in TX. Doesn't take much heat to make it too hot. for $12K that sounds like the entire HVAC system (I got some quotes earlier this year as one of mine is 25 years old now - the original for the house). One thing to note is that at the end of this year they transition from selling units with R410a (they banned production of R22 aka Freon, after 2020) to another new refrigerant (mostly R454B in the US). As I understand that has all new installation requirements because it is actually flammable... which also means that the prices are guaranteed to go up (to cover all the extra training for the HVAC install/service folks and because did I mention it is flammable?). Although to be fair, it's been conveniently re-classified as "mildly flammable". I know I can't wait (but I will wait because I honestly don't want to replace a working system if I don't have to so I'm going to wait until it takes it's last breath...). The 25 y/o unit I have still uses R22 and last I saw a gallon of that (which is either reclaimed or old stock now) is over $250. So once it leaks, it's pretty expensive to try to fill it again. Yes that's part of the issue with the timing. And as ericn correctly points out it's the blower/fan that is so loud. So my thought is that if I put an electric furnace in there perhaps I can seal that sucker up a bit more to contain the noise of the blower. Currently thats not possible because the gas furnace requires ventilation that an electric one doesn't.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Nov 5, 2024 12:31:06 GMT -6
for $12K that sounds like the entire HVAC system (I got some quotes earlier this year as one of mine is 25 years old now - the original for the house). One thing to note is that at the end of this year they transition from selling units with R410a (they banned production of R22 aka Freon, after 2020) to another new refrigerant (mostly R454B in the US). As I understand that has all new installation requirements because it is actually flammable... which also means that the prices are guaranteed to go up (to cover all the extra training for the HVAC install/service folks and because did I mention it is flammable?). Although to be fair, it's been conveniently re-classified as "mildly flammable". I know I can't wait (but I will wait because I honestly don't want to replace a working system if I don't have to so I'm going to wait until it takes it's last breath...). The 25 y/o unit I have still uses R22 and last I saw a gallon of that (which is either reclaimed or old stock now) is over $250. So once it leaks, it's pretty expensive to try to fill it again. Yes that's part of the issue with the timing. And as ericn correctly points out it's the blower/fan that is so loud. So my thought is that if I put an electric furnace in there perhaps I can seal that sucker up a bit more to contain the noise of the blower. Currently thats not possible because the gas furnace requires ventilation that an electric one doesn't. For the heat I have an expensive silent solution radiant in the floor, but you still need the air handler to chill, & in TX that’s a bigger deal. Now for what might seam like a stupid but easy solution, since with the gas furnace the closet acts like the return & the venting intake at the door is where your drawing in air could you and ask your contractor put the venting on the other side wall then put in a nice solid core door?
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 5, 2024 12:39:32 GMT -6
Yes that's part of the issue with the timing. And as ericn correctly points out it's the blower/fan that is so loud. So my thought is that if I put an electric furnace in there perhaps I can seal that sucker up a bit more to contain the noise of the blower. Currently thats not possible because the gas furnace requires ventilation that an electric one doesn't. For the heat I have an expensive silent solution radiant in the floor, but you still need the air handler to chill, & in TX that’s a bigger deal. Now for what might seam like a stupid but easy solution, since with the gas furnace the closet acts like the return & the venting intake at the door is where your drawing in air could you and ask your contractor put the venting on the other side wall then put in a nice solid core door? That's precisely what he suggested. But he wasn't sure how much of a difference it would make. He said he could only do that with an electric furnace though because the venting would be insufficient for a gas furnace. I feel like based on my very basic knowledge of physics of sound that could make a big difference. But I'm not totally sure.
|
|
|
Post by doubledog on Nov 5, 2024 12:48:21 GMT -6
not sure if you have been watching the electric rates lately. As most of Texas is "unregulated", my bills have been way up in the past couple years (while the providers all make up for the problems they had when Texas froze over). I had a contract that expired in 2022 I think. The next time, with the best contract we could find, my electric bills more than doubled. Luckily that was for only a year and then we found better rates, but they still kinda suck and we're paying way more for electric than pre-freeze -- which is my long way of saying I am glad I have gas heat. But that is also part of the problem with the contract pricing -- since we use a lot less electricity when it is cold (although even today it's not really "cold", but at least the AC is not on), the contracts all want to put you in a range that never works out for us over the winter months (we end up paying higher - basically get penalized for not using as much).
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 5, 2024 13:16:07 GMT -6
not sure if you have been watching the electric rates lately. As most of Texas is "unregulated", my bills have been way up in the past couple years (while the providers all make up for the problems they had when Texas froze over). I had a contract that expired in 2022 I think. The next time, with the best contract we could find, my electric bills more than doubled. Luckily that was for only a year and then we found better rates, but they still kinda suck and we're paying way more for electric than pre-freeze -- which is my long way of saying I am glad I have gas heat. But that is also part of the problem with the contract pricing -- since we use a lot less electricity when it is cold (although even today it's not really "cold", but at least the AC is not on), the contracts all want to put you in a range that never works out for us over the winter months (we end up paying higher - basically get penalized for not using as much). Well my gas heater requires electricity anyway which is annoying. Obviously less electricity than an electric heater but it still was freezing cold during the "freeze". Thankfully in Georgetown we have a municipal power district. So we haven't had any of the rolling blackouts and my power bill is still quite manageable. Will it always be that way? Who knows.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Nov 5, 2024 14:05:03 GMT -6
For the heat I have an expensive silent solution radiant in the floor, but you still need the air handler to chill, & in TX that’s a bigger deal. Now for what might seam like a stupid but easy solution, since with the gas furnace the closet acts like the return & the venting intake at the door is where your drawing in air could you and ask your contractor put the venting on the other side wall then put in a nice solid core door? That's precisely what he suggested. But he wasn't sure how much of a difference it would make. He said he could only do that with an electric furnace though because the venting would be insufficient for a gas furnace. I feel like based on my very basic knowledge of physics of sound that could make a big difference. But I'm not totally sure. Check with the inspector! Because a decent door, better yet one you can get a noise kit for, some insulation & a vent panel are pretty cheap if you can do it ! We like cheap !
|
|