amiel
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by amiel on Oct 20, 2014 23:04:08 GMT -6
I wonder always how many cool ways there are to Mix or get great acoustic Gtr sounds during the Mix.
If you have a L-R acoustic Rhythm Gtr , how do you mix it to have the gtrs cutting thru the mix but also with energy and size. Considering the Gtr recording is good.
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Post by swurveman on Oct 21, 2014 7:48:12 GMT -6
Output both the L-R Guitars to a Stereo Aux track and slap an API 2500 on it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 21, 2014 9:04:03 GMT -6
I use a small diaphragm condenser for "strummy" acoustic tracks, and an LDC for tracks with more note picking in it. I also use the comp feature occasionally. Say I do 5 takes of a track. I usually pick the best one, then the second best take, and put one left, one right. That way I get true stereo because the tracks are different, but almost the same. It would probably be better to rehearse a completely different second track, but this saves a lot of time, and I use it as if it's only one stereo acoustic track, and add other tracks as needed.
I'm sure there are some more experienced cats here who can offer better suggestions. I like to print with the WA76 compressor, usually with the lowest levels, just to handle the outer edges, it helps the track sit better.
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Post by jeromemason on Oct 24, 2014 17:57:18 GMT -6
Take a listen to the Alison Krauss "Paper Airplane" record and then read up on how (RIP) Mike Shipley recorded that record. All the instruments sound larger than life and are just freaking beautiful.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 24, 2014 18:11:23 GMT -6
I wonder always how many cool ways there are to Mix or get great acoustic Gtr sounds during the Mix. If you have a L-R acoustic Rhythm Gtr , how do you mix it to have the gtrs cutting thru the mix but also with energy and size. Considering the Gtr recording is good. you could key the acoustic guitar tracks compressors with the vox to duck em just a bit, this way you can leave them with a little more beef on em that would otherwise step on the vox. hope this helps
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amiel
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by amiel on Oct 25, 2014 11:03:45 GMT -6
Tony ..that is a cool tip//// Jeromemason.. do you remember where is that article of the great Mike Shipley?
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Post by swurveman on Oct 25, 2014 12:10:11 GMT -6
Take a listen to the Alison Krauss "Paper Airplane" record and then read up on how (RIP) Mike Shipley recorded that record. All the instruments sound larger than life and are just freaking beautiful. I read this SOS article about Paper Airplane, which was a great read. Thanks for the reference Jerome. All I can say is trying to imitate that sound you better bring your wallet. For tracking, he went to a great old Nashville room with lots of wood paneling, used vintage mics-KM54's, U67/U49's- used his "favorite preamp" which probably isn't cheap (1073? Cranesong Flamingo?), then into Cranesong STC8 and Gates Sta level compressors. The mixing parts sound like an advertisement for as many plugin makers as possible, but it seems like the heavy lifting was done in the tracking phase. Didn't hurt to have the best players in the world playing the best instruments either. He did mention building "huts" for the players to prevent mic bleed, which is something all of us mere mortals can do. The article does make me want to get an STC8 compressor for acoustic recording. Vintage mics and a truly great room are a dream....
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Post by jeromemason on Oct 25, 2014 12:17:28 GMT -6
Take a listen to the Alison Krauss "Paper Airplane" record and then read up on how (RIP) Mike Shipley recorded that record. All the instruments sound larger than life and are just freaking beautiful. I read this SOS article about Paper Airplane, which was a great read. Thanks for the reference Jerome. All I can say is trying to imitate that sound you better bring your wallet. For tracking, he went to a great old Nashville room with lots of wood paneling, used vintage mics-KM54's, U67/U49's- used his "favorite preamp" which probably isn't cheap (1073? Cranesong Flamingo?), then into Cranesong STC8 and Gates Sta level compressors. The mixing parts sound like an advertisement for as many plugin makers as possible, but it seems like the heavy lifting was done in the tracking phase. Didn't hurt to have the best players in the world playing the best instruments either. He did mention building "huts" for the players to prevent mic bleed, which is something all of us mere mortals can do. The article does make me want to get an STC8 compressor for acoustic recording. Vintage mics and a truly great room are a dream.... I've gotten some incredible sounds using LDC's in a modest room and using his techniques. It's really and truly all about the phase relationship ship of the two mic's, if you get them right it will sound larger than life. I don't disagree with you on the players though.... That is the one thing that cannot be recreated, they are a special bunch, I've had the pleasure of recording guys that are that talented and it's sounds great when the mic is laying on the freaking floor. But, if you've got a good player, a good guitar, you can use the method Mike uses and get some really big sounds, if that's what you're going for. If I was cutting acoustics to mimic what elecs do in carrying the rhythm, I usually pull the mic back about a foot away and change the polarity a couple of clicks towards Omni. Space will help it seem louder and you won't have to use as much compression. Just have to do that it a room that is really well treated but it works.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 25, 2014 12:17:59 GMT -6
In the end, it's a great player in a great room, is basically the sound we're all trying for, the gear really isn't that big a deal, as there are so many fine options, once you're in the high end.
I was in a well treated room, and plugged my mic directly into a vintage refurbished Neve board as a test around six months ago, no effects at all, all that sucker needed was a little reverb and it was done.
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Post by swurveman on Oct 25, 2014 15:23:26 GMT -6
<abbr>delete</abbr>
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Post by swurveman on Oct 25, 2014 15:25:07 GMT -6
I read this SOS article about Paper Airplane, which was a great read. Thanks for the reference Jerome. All I can say is trying to imitate that sound you better bring your wallet. For tracking, he went to a great old Nashville room with lots of wood paneling, used vintage mics-KM54's, U67/U49's- used his "favorite preamp" which probably isn't cheap (1073? Cranesong Flamingo?), then into Cranesong STC8 and Gates Sta level compressors. The mixing parts sound like an advertisement for as many plugin makers as possible, but it seems like the heavy lifting was done in the tracking phase. Didn't hurt to have the best players in the world playing the best instruments either. He did mention building "huts" for the players to prevent mic bleed, which is something all of us mere mortals can do. The article does make me want to get an STC8 compressor for acoustic recording. Vintage mics and a truly great room are a dream.... I've gotten some incredible sounds using LDC's in a modest room and using his techniques. It's really and truly all about the phase relationship ship of the two mic's, if you get them right it will sound larger than life. I don't disagree with you on the players though.... That is the one thing that cannot be recreated, they are a special bunch, I've had the pleasure of recording guys that are that talented and it's sounds great when the mic is laying on the freaking floor. But, if you've got a good player, a good guitar, you can use the method Mike uses and get some really big sounds, if that's what you're going for. If I was cutting acoustics to mimic what elecs do in carrying the rhythm, I usually pull the mic back about a foot away and change the polarity a couple of clicks towards Omni. Space will help it seem louder and you won't have to use as much compression. Just have to do that it a room that is really well treated but it works. Thanks for your reply Jerome. Did you do anything inside the room-i.e. rugs, baffles etc- to get a sound you were happy with. My tracking room is pretty live. The more I back off the mics the more reflections I'm dealing with. I've never tried two LDC's using the 3-1 rule. I've got a Neumann U87ai, a Peluso 2247SE and a Peluso P12. So, I'll check it out along with trying polar patterns to get them right. Thanks for the tip. I did find his method of panning the body mic far L with the neck mic in the center-with mirror image panning for the second guitar- interesting.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 26, 2014 17:27:59 GMT -6
"I've got a Neumann U87ai, a Peluso 2247SE and a Peluso P12."
Nice mics swurvenan, which one do you like best for male vocals?
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 26, 2014 19:18:15 GMT -6
2 more cents, the mentioning of the room cannot be overstated, you simply cannot hide from the room, it's very under considered IMO, the only thing that sounds worse than carpet or drywall, is carpet AND drywall(dishonorable mention to a low ceiling 8) I'm also a fan of LDC's, i like to place them 1.5 to 2.5 feet off the guitar in a GREAT and quiet room, you just cant beat that sound ime. Also a cool trick is to slightly skew the phase between 2 different mic's, it gives some movement to the track and creates excitement.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 22, 2014 21:20:36 GMT -6
Also a cool trick is to slightly skew the phase between 2 different mic's, it gives some movement to the track and creates excitement. Skew be do be do. Had to say it..
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Post by swurveman on Nov 22, 2014 22:23:18 GMT -6
"I've got a Neumann U87ai, a Peluso 2247SE and a Peluso P12." Nice mics swurvenan, which one do you like best for male vocals? It depends on the source. Baritone's get the 2247SE. Tenors get the U87ai or the P12.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 27, 2014 9:51:27 GMT -6
I wonder always how many cool ways there are to Mix or get great acoustic Gtr sounds during the Mix. If you have a L-R acoustic Rhythm Gtr , how do you mix it to have the gtrs cutting thru the mix but also with energy and size. Considering the Gtr recording is good. you could key the acoustic guitar tracks compressors with the vox to duck em just a bit, this way you can leave them with a little more beef on em that would otherwise step on the vox. hope this helps I do this "ducking" with automation on the acoustic buss. Works great. Usually draw it it for more accuracy.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 27, 2014 9:54:52 GMT -6
Room makes A LOT of difference in acoustic recordings.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 27, 2014 13:09:37 GMT -6
Room makes A LOT of difference in acoustic recordings. What's the ideal room Cowboy?
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 27, 2014 13:27:05 GMT -6
Room makes A LOT of difference in acoustic recordings. What's the ideal room Cowboy? Tony 8) A medium sized room, ceilings as tall as possible, wood walls if possible, concrete floor if possible, low stool/ chair. The medium size, lots of wood, and a concrete floor will give you lots of good room interference IME. hope this helps
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Post by swurveman on Nov 27, 2014 13:42:45 GMT -6
What's the ideal room Cowboy? Tony 8) A medium sized room, ceilings as tall as possible, wood walls if possible, concrete floor if possible, low stool/ chair. The medium size, lots of wood, and a concrete floor will give you lots of good room interference IME. hope this helps Thanks Tony. I have a 12'x13'x9' room with wood floors and plaster walls. I mostly track drums and electric guitar amps in the room, which has bass traps floor to ceiling in the corners and three large 7'x5' moveable gobos that are wooden on one side and have absorption on the other. . It is a live but not warm room. I have had trouble getting a good acoustic guitar sound. So, I'm wondering if there's anything I can do that in the room and/or with the gobos to improve the sound so that I can get a good acoustic guitar sound. Andy thoughts/advice would be much appreciated.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 27, 2014 14:13:15 GMT -6
A medium sized room, ceilings as tall as possible, wood walls if possible, concrete floor if possible, low stool/ chair. The medium size, lots of wood, and a concrete floor will give you lots of good room interference IME. hope this helps Thanks Tony. I have a 12'x13'x9' room with wood floors and plaster walls. I mostly track drums and electric guitar amps in the room, which has bass traps floor to ceiling in the corners and three large 7'x5' moveable gobos that are wooden on one side and have absorption on the other. . It is a live but not warm room. I have had trouble getting a good acoustic guitar sound. So, I'm wondering if there's anything I can do that in the room and/or with the gobos to improve the sound so that I can get a good acoustic guitar sound. Andy thoughts/advice would be much appreciated. This is what i'd try, put those gobos wood side into the room on the smaller dimension of 12', to make the room longer(than wide) in the long direction, and more of a rectangle shape, then squat/walk around the room while playing the guitar, look for a spot where it pops, (it will to some degree somewhere) it should be more toward the center/than tight up against a wall, then get what ever carpet may be under your chosen tracking position out of there, also absorb the ceiling directly over where you choose to track, use a chair that gets your thighs parallel to the ground, this should go a long way to helping you get close. I'd also consider putting any diffusion on the floor and out to the corners of wall/floor with a slight tilt at a little steeper than 45*, the don't seem to work to well as compared to a flat soft wood wall at the same level as the guitar.. I hope this makes some sense man, let me know if i can clear any of what i said up for you? btw, ime, The only thing that would make this not work would be a dead guitar? Also, the only thing that sounds worse than drywall or carpet, is drywall AND carpet 8), plaster is only slightly better IMO. let me know how you make out bud
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 27, 2014 14:17:19 GMT -6
i would also add, if your room is quiet, get the LDC's off the guitar as far as you can(within reason) without the room taking precident, if the guitar is placed in the room well, the interaction of the room will give you a very real and natural sound, also using a pair of unmatched mics of very different character can add a lot to an AC sound ime.
good luck
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 28, 2014 13:12:51 GMT -6
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Post by swurveman on Nov 28, 2014 17:45:53 GMT -6
Their vocal booth is almost as big as my live room.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 28, 2014 17:49:52 GMT -6
Thanks Tony. I have a 12'x13'x9' room with wood floors and plaster walls. I mostly track drums and electric guitar amps in the room, which has bass traps floor to ceiling in the corners and three large 7'x5' moveable gobos that are wooden on one side and have absorption on the other. . It is a live but not warm room. I have had trouble getting a good acoustic guitar sound. So, I'm wondering if there's anything I can do that in the room and/or with the gobos to improve the sound so that I can get a good acoustic guitar sound. Andy thoughts/advice would be much appreciated. This is what i'd try, put those gobos wood side into the room on the smaller dimension of 12', to make the room longer(than wide) in the long direction, and more of a rectangle shape, then squat/walk around the room while playing the guitar, look for a spot where it pops, (it will to some degree somewhere) it should be more toward the center/than tight up against a wall, then get what ever carpet may be under your chosen tracking position out of there, also absorb the ceiling directly over where you choose to track, use a chair that gets your thighs parallel to the ground, this should go a long way to helping you get close. I'd also consider putting any diffusion on the floor and out to the corners of wall/floor with a slight tilt at a little steeper than 45*, the don't seem to work to well as compared to a flat soft wood wall at the same level as the guitar.. I hope this makes some sense man, let me know if i can clear any of what i said up for you? btw, ime, The only thing that would make this not work would be a dead guitar? Also, the only thing that sounds worse than drywall or carpet, is drywall AND carpet 8), plaster is only slightly better IMO. let me know how you make out bud Thanks for taking the time Tony. I'll try this out.
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