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Post by watchtower on Sept 12, 2013 16:51:10 GMT -6
I have never thought of myself as a "Marshall guy" (I play death metal, and my only all-tube amp I've owned is a 5150, although I did own a valvestate marshall before that), but lately I have been unable to ignore my love for 80s heavy metal guitar tone (even 70s stuff and some 80s glam). I'm talking Judas Priest, Mercyful Fate, Ratt, Thin Lizzy, Black Sabbath, Dio, etc. I don't know for sure, but I would wager all of those guys used Marshalls.
So, I started to research old Marshalls, and I've discovered a whole world of which I was previously ignorant. Amp and guitar folkflore is even deeper than the vintage mic folklore I know and love. I am now thinking I need to get a Marshall Plexi, or clone/replica.
Since I am a newbie to this subject, I'd like to be educated by you guys who almost definitely know way more than I do. I have lots of questions, too.
From what I understand, guys like Clapton and the like used the JTM45-type amps in the 60s. These sound cool, but they're probably not gainy enough for 80s-style metal.
I'd imagine guys started adopting the plexi in the 70s and used them into the 80s. I know for a fact Ratt and Judas Priest used plexis. Warren DeMartini mentions his late-70s 100W plexi having a "high plate voltage" and being used on Invasion of Your Privacy (incredible tone, IMHO). Glenn Tipton used "50 watt, non-master Marshall heads with EL34 output tubes" on Screaming for Vengeance. That would be a plexi, right?
I believe I've read Van Halen had a 12000 Series, which is a 1968 Marshall plexi? With some type of Variac Voltage adjustment? What does it all mean? I saw Suhr amps mention "variac style overdrive" and Metro amps seem to have some sort of Variac control as well.
So basically I know there are JTM marshalls, then plexis (JMP, Super Lead, etc., I dont know them all, anyone want to help clarify?), then the JCM800 (infamous, but I am ignorant. Used by Slayer and the like?)
Obviously plexis and JCM800s can do metal, but I am wondering. Were these guys in the 80s using pedals like MXR distortion and treble boosters to get more gain out of the amps, or can you do metal by cranking them with no pedals? If you need a pedal to get metal out of a plexi, maybe I would be happier with a JCM800?
So, while I'd love to have the real Marshall badge, I'm pretty sure vintage Marshalls are too expensive (though I haven't actually looked) for me, and am open to clones and even DiY (I have not built an amp, but I have built a mic before). What are the best clones and replicas or DiY kits? I know about Suhr Amps and Metro Amps, but these are about $4k, and out of budget. I thought Metro did DiY kits/parts, and they look incredibly nice, but I sent an email months ago inquiring, and got no reply.
I have also heard of Aracom (though they're a little pricey for me even at about $1,600) and Ceriatone, which at $1,100 for a 100W Super lead, is much more reasonable for me.
I've also heard of mojotone, Weber, tube depot kits, triodeelectronics kits, and I'm sure there's tons more. Any advice? I noticed a Mojotone kits are the same price as a fully-assembled Ceriatone 100W Super Lead. What's up with that? Component quality?
I've read mentions of "orange dots" and "mustard" caps - any comments about this stuff?
Supposedly the transformers are a big part of the old Marshall sound. I've heard everything from "no one makes them like they used to" all the way to the other end of the spectrum of "all the transformer options are basically fine, so Mercury magnetics are overpriced snake oil."
What can anyone tell me about 100W versus 50W plexis and 100W versus 50W JCM 800s? Is there more of a difference than just volume? Is that the only difference between the 2203 and 2204?
I understand these amps need to be cranked to distort and sound their best for heavy stuff, but can I use a Hot Plate to get that tone without going deaf?
I know that's a ton of questions. I just feel immediately in over my head after just a couple days of research, and was hoping maybe I could get some guidance. Thanks!
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Post by Newton In Orbit on Sept 12, 2013 17:46:48 GMT -6
Hi, first post here. I think I know most of you from the purple site, and have been lurking and reading since Scum Bum tipped me off the day the site was launched. This place is SOOOO much more relaxed, JK, thanks for this. As far as that time period and Metal tone... If I'm not mistaken, the Van Halen stuff was cut using a pedal, and pretty sure Screaming for vengeance was too. Also, Yes 90125 was a similar setup, but used an Ampeg instead of the Marshall. Anyway, the common thread here? At that time the Heavy Metal pedal had just been out for a few years maybe, and it was used on a LOT of records from the late 70's to maybe mid 80's. Kinda ruled that genre a bit. Crank the JCM 800 or Plexi, dial back the distortion on the H.M. pedal, but jack the "level" or output knob, can't remember what Boss called it. So yeah, the old black and orange Boss H.M. pedal combined with a really hot, driven output stage on a good tube amp was kinda that sound. A little bite, not too fizzy as it got rolled off by the cranked amp, lots of sustain. I think later people just started cascading preamp stages, and some built the HM pedal sound into amps, like the Marshall artist 3203 line, which used LED's believe it or not for it's diode clipping. Very similar sound to a JCM 800 w/ HM pedal. Not quite as good as a HM pedal and plexi though... Some hate this amp, I have one and kinda like it, especially for leads. Here's what she looks like: www.google.com/search?q=marshall+artist+3203&safe=off&rlz=1C2ASUT_enUS547US547&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=v04yUqLWIZLM9ASIv4HIAg&ved=0CDEQsAQI recapped mine, and put in some National ic's and it has a little bit of a smoother tone now. Those caps were the og's from 1989? Anyway, that's what I know about that window in time for the metal stuff I guess, sorry if any info is errant. You might also try to find an old TC line driver, and put it in front of your plexi or 800, and abuse the front end a little, gaining it up. Those symetrix sx201's have a high z input and a preamp, plus a decent eq, that works too if you need to tweak your tone a bit more. TC sustainer for leads was / is really cool. Also,my apologies for not having a ton of Marshall info specifically, I was never really into amp history, and knowing all the models. Mostly I would hear a tone I liked, find out what the player was using, and go find one....kinda like you are doing now right? Good luck in your search! John |
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Post by watchtower on Sept 12, 2013 18:13:01 GMT -6
Are you referring to the Boss HM-2 pedal? I have two of those. Those pedals with all the knobs up to 10 is the essence of 90s swedish death metal tone, and what I use in my band.
With that said, that pedal came out in 1983, so no way they were using it in the 70s. Is there a different HM pedal you're referring to?
Thanks for the reply, by the way!
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Post by Newton In Orbit on Sept 12, 2013 18:38:24 GMT -6
Yeah, probably not the 70's....I don't remember mine saying "HM-2" though either, but it was black and orange. I remember in 83 or so, getting this pedal, and seeing the setups in the owner's manual for Van Halen, Yes, etc. They had this thing and delays, flangers , noise suppressors etc in line.
My pedal was stolen about 6-7 years ago, but I think I may still have the box and the little 6 page manual / insert. I'll check if it was an HM-2 if I can find it, now I am curious myself.
John
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Post by Newton In Orbit on Sept 12, 2013 18:49:23 GMT -6
Check this out fwiw: forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-preset-exchange/29901-van-halen-beat-solo.htmlThat's the leaflet thing I was talking about. All I know, is when that pedal was released in 83 or whatever, the leaflet already had these player's setups in them, so this suggests the pedal existed in some form before it was commercially available maybe? I dunno. Maybe it was a lowly, ds-1.... Maybe the 70's stuff like early Priest etc, was just a plain old cranked amp. Maybe some Fuzz Face on leads. Doesn't sound like the nasty old RAT pedal to my ears. The 80's priest sure sounds like a HM pedal to me though...to the letter. I think I remember them mentioning it in some guitar rag back then, but keep in mind, this was decades ago. My memory could easily be failing me. I'd still try it with a Marshall though, way different sound than a 5150. Sorry, I don't have more info, but really, if it were me, that's where I'd start. Maybe somebody else can give you a definitive answer on the late 70's metal thing. The biggest part of the sound is driving the front end hard, with something, to clip the first valve and get some distortion. John PS For me, the best tones of the late 60's and early to mid 70's were the Supro amps, ala Jimmy Page LZ I, and LZ IV. That said, I love the tones you are talking about as well. I recently pulled out SFV on a long car ride, and the record sounds HUGE and holds up many years on. |
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Post by Newton In Orbit on Sept 12, 2013 19:00:36 GMT -6
Yeah sorry to keep getting off the Marshall topic, but Thriller was released in 82, and the leaflet released in 83 for the HM-2 pedal had VH's settings for "Beat It" in it?
There must have been an HM-1, or just plain HM pedal or something.
Sorry I can't be of more assistance.
john
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Post by popmann on Sept 12, 2013 21:06:28 GMT -6
The go to for the 80s metal are modified plexis. From Dokken to Appetite to Winger...all 60s/early 70s plexis--usually with a gain stage added to the front. Kind of a treble booster using the second half of the first 12ax7.
Jcm800s were used on the road because they would gain up at stage volume, but studio was all Plexi.
Check out Michael Wageneer's collection of plexis and Plexi clones some time. If anyone should know how to get that sound....know what I mean?
I bought an amp a few years ago from Bob Reinhardt that nails that sound. Literally a 30wt Plexi with a JCM style master volume and a foot switchable extra gain stage on the front. He no longer builds amps, but if you find one--it's a Storm33. To nail the sound you'll still need to crank it...which is why I had him build mine with power scaling, but...
If you find a Plexi or Plexi clone, you want a treble booster. A clean boost will do....there's not HUGE difference in my Storm's built in boost and my Keeley Katana--but, you really want a treble booster--basically a low cut combined with literal volume/gain boost. You can use normal drive pedals with the drive off and the tone/volume as the booster...but, as long as you're doing it, do it right. Clean or treble boost.
On the guitar side, there were two schools...Duncan humbuckers like the JB/screaming Demon/57...and the Dimarzio stuff. The stuff you mention is Duncan. I was never big on the Dimarzio. Less midrange bite. More sizzle. But, lots of the shredder side used them.
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Post by popmann on Sept 12, 2013 21:08:41 GMT -6
Also, at the END of the 80s the ADA MP1 made a big splash. But, it's mostly the cheesier side and folks who were big into FX switching without money for a Bradshaw rig.
On the cheap, I should mention....Randall RG80 combo will get you great 80s rock tone. Solid state. Go figure.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 13, 2013 4:18:40 GMT -6
Yeah sorry to keep getting off the Marshall topic, but Thriller was released in 82, and the leaflet released in 83 for the HM-2 pedal had VH's settings for "Beat It" in it? There must have been an HM-1, or just plain HM pedal or something. Sorry I can't be of more assistance. john Sorry to poop on the parade, but I think the listed settings in the pedal book were just settings that sounded similar to the mentioned track. Not that the artist actually used it, just that it would get you in the ballpark of that sound. |
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Post by Newton In Orbit on Sept 13, 2013 8:35:24 GMT -6
Yeah,that's a possibility, see link I posted earlier, the fractal page thing. Discussion on that exact subject, whether VH really used the pedal...or company is not telling the truth...etc.
Gets a bit nutz. Just a cheap pedal. I guess people are just chasing tones.
I will say using that pedal to drive the amp like a tube screamer is typically used, works well and sounds like a lot of records from that era to my ears. That said, if you turn the distortion up on the pedal instead of driving the amp with level, it gets a bit nasty and fizzy, ala the Swedish stuff watchtower was talking about. I ain't crazy about this sound.
For me, I was really just saying to get something in front of the old amps that don't have a mess of preamp stages, something solid state...whatever it be, and over drive the front end. It what metal guys were doing before these new amps with 22 channels and 11 preamp stages cascaded into one another.
I dunno, any suggestions on how to get the sound watchtower is looking for? Most older marshalls distort nicely cranked, but at the same time, people were forever trying to get more dirt and crunch out of them. I have an 81 JCM 800 w/ the 1960, and cranked it sounds great. Still, it doesn't get the Screaming for Vengeance thing on it's own.
Anyway, I'm not much of a Metal guy myself, have recorded a ton of it, but I posted because I really like the era W.T. mentioned.
Thanks though, no worries on the parade
john
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Post by Newton In Orbit on Sept 13, 2013 8:55:59 GMT -6
Hey poppmann! just saw your post. Yup the ADA was/ is great for this too. I sold mine to the drummer of Fear Factory in about 1998 I think? Maybe a little later, should have kept it, but they are easy to find. Pretty heavy sounding box. From looking around the web, it seems the mxr stuff was being used a lot prior to the Boss stuff. Here's a page on Randy Rhoads rig, if it interests anybody: www.guitargeek.com/randy-rhoads-ozzy-osbourne-1981-guitar-rig-and-gear-setup-diagram/It's possible I just stand corrected, and it was mostly mxr pedals I was hearing with the solid state distortion tone back then. Sorry for any errant info W.T. I dunno, when that B.O.O. record came out, I thought the gtrs sounded huge. Now they sound great, but compared to modern metal tones "huge" they are not really. Great posts man! Nice contribution. john |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 13, 2013 8:59:04 GMT -6
No suggestions on getting the tone, but I agree that there are pedals being used along with amps. I just think that a lot of the pedals and even amps usually have "suggested settings" to get tones similar to the artists listed, more than actual settings that the performer used on a track. Either way, I'm interested in hearing peoples thoughts on the subject.  |
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Post by Newton In Orbit on Sept 13, 2013 16:51:51 GMT -6
I am curious too. Especially about the 70's Judas Priest etc. For that matter, I want to learn what was used on a lot of 70's stuff, as there are some big gaps in people's memories, and not a lot was written down I think.
Hey jcoutu, I see you are in RI, I just got back from the woods of ME myself. New England is beautiful.
I got back down here near DC, and there was a 20-30 degree temp change...about keeled over from the humidity.
Anyway, wish I could go back :0)
john
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 14:05:49 GMT -6
JCM800 for that 80s thing.
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Post by mobeach on Sept 14, 2013 14:58:49 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Sept 15, 2013 12:50:52 GMT -6
One needs to define types and eras of "metal". I'm talking anything that would've been produced by Beau Hill or Michael Wageneer--"80s metal"...or as I refer to it--pop with the guitars turned up. THAT range of guitar sound is simply a Plexi...with sometimes a treble booster (or dirt pedal USED as treble booster) in the studio. Or a modded plexi (extra gain stage on the front) that won't need a pedal. But, you also can't discount tape's role. As someone who worked during that era as an engineer....there was a lot of getting "close enough" and then pressing it into the red. That is no longer a valid approach for most. I just mixed a record with a lot of "those" tones on it. It was tracked to digital with questionable preamps/converters. I made it fine. Filtering is KEY-150/8khz is where I start and open it up as the track allows. I actually bought VTM with his budget. Anyway--next time you listen, I mean really listen to something rom that era--notice how incredibly band passed the guitars are. It's what allows teh bass to take it's place AND the drums to cut through what would be a wall of non dynamic Egtrs. Hill always cut keyboards...which was also MY bag during the day. But, that's not directly related to the guitar tone. Listen to the tone itself...tell me my filter set is far off...as the 80s prgressed and there started to be digital recorders, say Zak Wylde era Ozzy and such they started backing the filters out some...getting "heavier" on the lows with a little more fizzies (often masked with Chorus)... <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PnikqKnlkiQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/C0eYReVGthg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> |
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Post by scumbum on Sept 16, 2013 10:50:09 GMT -6
Crank the JCM 800 or Plexi, dial back the distortion on the H.M. pedal, but jack the "level" or output knob, can't remember what Boss called it. So yeah, the old black and orange Boss H.M. pedal combined with a really hot, driven output stage on a good tube amp was kinda that sound. Cool ! I never understood how to setup the pedal before the amp to get that extra gain . So you use the pedal's output level to basically boost the guitar signal so it overdrives the amp . I gotta go try this out ! I have an Orange AD30 Single Channel , its what Page used live for shows , it does classic rock but not enough gain for heavier stuff . |
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Post by mobeach on Sept 16, 2013 16:06:40 GMT -6
Rack effects with delay, chorus, flanger etc work better in the effects loop, but distortion, overdrive pedals are much much better pre EQ. I use delay pedals in line before the preamp as well. The little stomp boxes work much better pre EQ.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2013 4:48:50 GMT -6
Well, as for the history of metal pedals as i recall it from memory from that time 80's when i was into heavy rock and heavy metal, i loved hearing the MXR plus that looks a bit like  colorwise, hehe, in front of the JCM800 for that 'like 70's but the heavy shit' tone. More knobs at the amp were for pussies (  ) so no JCM900 and the Plexies were too expensive around here if i memorize correctly, so the JCM800 was the thing to go for live playing. Mostly the studios had Plexi's to use for recording. Later came the Boss DS-1 and then the Heavy Metal (not 2). Those were the classics i remember very well, with the MXR sounding very good, the Boss beeing a bit untamed and not so comfortable and then the Heavy Metal beeing tha affordable shit for controlling these very high gain tones of 'modern' metal when it came up. And the first one explicitly for metal \m/. For the really good tones, the output stages had to be driven into overdrive as well, man, the fullstacks were LOUD as hell... it was hard to hold up against, as a bass player. And sincerely, it is quite a wonder that i am not deaf from these years. I know guitarists that have really severe hear damages from these times.... |
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colorwise, hehe, in front of the JCM800 for that 'like 70's but the heavy shit' tone. More knobs at the amp were for pussies ( 
) so no JCM900 and the Plexies were too expensive around here if i memorize correctly, so the JCM800 was the thing to go for live playing. Mostly the studios had Plexi's to use for recording.