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Post by unit7 on Dec 2, 2016 11:40:46 GMT -6
Hi! DIdn't know if I should put here or in DIY.. I'm about to order a DIY kit for a Princeton clone. I was into buying the kit from Marsh Amps but then found a provider here in Sweden that cost about half, leaving some room for ordering a Mercury Magnetics output xformer and perhaps a couple of other improvements. But the most important should be the speaker, right? I'll ask around about the usual suspects like Jensen, Celestion, Weber etc. But I was intrigued by seing Martin John Butler posts about the sweet looking Louis Electric Princeton clone. www.louiselectricamps.com/guitar-amps/Princetone-amp.shtml#.WEGwfYVvdFWIt uses this Jupiter speaker: jupitercondenser.com/product/12lc-12-50w-vintage-american-ceramic-guitar-speaker/Btw, I'll have the cabinet prepared for a 12" speaker instead of the most commonly used 10". Would be grateful for any input on this very subjective subject! Or links to sites where I can find more info. I'm not a guitarist but need an amp only for my studio, so tone is priority, loud levels not so much. Thanks! |
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 14, 2016 10:36:10 GMT -6
I had put a JBL in my first Princeton Reverb blackface, one of the orange D-120 that came from my Twin Reverb. But luckily it developed an intermittent short after a year or so, and so I put the Jensen back in, which really sounded way better. I think a lot of the sound of the original amp is the the open back combined with the Jensen, just my humble opinion but I had three of those blackfaces at one time. When they went through the roof in value compared to the 50-75 bucks I originally paid, I gave into greed and need. Still my favorite amp, the new reissues don't seem to sound the same, hope the kit works out for ya. Find some NOS 6v6, that might get a more vintage sound.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 14, 2016 16:08:55 GMT -6
My lead guitar player has a Princeton Reverb II (which isn't exactly a real Princeton, it has more power and pull switches for lead, bright, and boost (which never get used) and a master volume.) It came stock with some sort of "Fender Special Design" 12" (Oxford?) and sounded kinda blah - it would also wimp out when hit hard. I bought him a JBL K120 (black frame) to replace the original speaker and it sounds great, especially for country, but also pretty much anything else. Here's the thing though - the JBL isn't quite stock - the aluminum dust cap has been replaced with a paper one from the JBL 22XX professional PA series, which smooths out the top end and removes the "ice pick" which is most people's major objection to the JBL guitar speakers. This can be done for around $20 by any competent reconer or you can get an aftermarket dust cap from Parts Express and do it yourself if you're careful. Use Plio-Bond glue, which is virtually identical to what's in the blank tube in a JBL factory recone kit.
When I worked for FM we had a mix of JBL pro series and instrument series 12s and 15s and all the instrument drivers had this mod. JBL aluminum dust caps have a parasitic resonance that makes them ring at 4K.
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 15, 2016 10:09:50 GMT -6
The drawback is JBL's are too heavy for a combo amp. I prefer Eminence, similar efficiency, similar power handling and much lighter/cheaper. If you don't have a crew and carry your own stuff that matters.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 15, 2016 10:29:22 GMT -6
The drawback is JBL's are too heavy for a combo amp. I prefer Eminence, similar efficiency, similar power handling and much lighter/cheaper. If you don't have a crew and carry your own stuff that matters. JBL Alnicos are significantly lighter than the E-series ceramics, which don't sound as good, anyway. And they're not really all that heavy when there's only one of them. I disagree about the efficiency of Eminence, at least the ones I've seen. It's very, very hard to beat the efficiency of a 4" edgewound voice coil. |
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Post by Ward on Dec 15, 2016 23:03:49 GMT -6
Well... jimwilliams and johneppstein, you gents certainly know your stuff but consider this 50 year old guy's experience too, please. I have found that the more efficient a speaker, the less appealing the sound. Thoughts? |
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 16, 2016 0:45:44 GMT -6
Yes, cardboard should be like vaseline on a lens, smoothing out the wrinkles and softening the texture. My old Sano GS-30 has a single 15 inch CTS in all it's non-responsive glory. At one point it was the tubes i worried about, it has some 7xxx tubes that they had stopped making. JJ fixed that, but once common, CTS speakers are hard to find. This amp is the ultimate vAlium for Telecasters on their period. Just smooths everything out without a square wave, and that is the CTS at work...
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 16, 2016 1:03:43 GMT -6
Well... jimwilliams and johneppstein , you gents certainly know your stuff but consider this 50 year old guy's experience too, please. I have found that the more efficient a speaker, the less appealing the sound. Thoughts? No. It's all context sensitive. And I'm highly partial to the sound of JBL guitar speakers, sans the damn ringy dome. However for some types of music I love old Jensen Alnicos and for other styles you can't beat the right Celestion. EVM/SROs are also very high efficiency, quite neutral sounding speakers that go well with many different kinds of music. Dunno about all these upstart companies, don'tg have time or money tgo try everything and my storfe working days are long gone. Something else you're missing is that high efficiency does not equate to high power - there are many low efficiency, high power speakers and they generally sound TERRIBLE (lookin' at YOU, Cerwin Vega) (and others). What I've discovered that I DON'T like is metal dustcaps. Most of those ancient, very low power Alnico Jensens that everybody covet now are actually quite high efficiency - they had to b e because amps were so low powered in the '50s. Low moving mass, high compliance = efficiency. |
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 16, 2016 10:39:52 GMT -6
A 100 db/1 watt sensitivity is good for a small 18 watt amp, if you want to play with others. Loud speakers let small amps play with the big boys. Modern Eminence 12" do about 101 db at one watt, not too bad for a 6 lb speaker that only costs about $70. The 10" do a bit less.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 16, 2016 16:51:18 GMT -6
It's not the question being asked exactly, but the Eminence Kappa 15LFA 15" speaker totally transformed my cheapo SWR bass cabinet. It's pretty efficient, handles a ton of power, and has a beautiful tone.
A 1x12 Fender amp speaker I really like is the Eminence Cannabis Rex, which is a hemp cone speaker with a very warm tone.
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Post by unit7 on Dec 16, 2016 17:43:46 GMT -6
While you guys discuss things that is way over my head I think I'm getting my list ready: - Weber 12A125A alnico (probably delivered in the amp) - Jupiter 12LA alnico - Eminence GA-SC64 ceramic (George Alessandro signature) - Possibly a WGS G12A alnico (if it's not too similar to the Jupiter which is manufactured by WGS) - Then finally a more 'high end'/open alnico like Celestion Gold, Jensen Blackbird or WGS BlackHawk Of the latter four I plan to keep two (or three) and get a 2 x 12" cab with a separate input for each speaker. This way I'll have at least three speaker options when recording. Have to say these recent weeks I've never before listened to so many clips on manufacturer's sites and speaker tests on YouTube, read opinions on different gear sites. Partially fun, partially mental..  |
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Post by Guitar on Dec 16, 2016 17:48:25 GMT -6
It's mental, for sure. Good luck with it. I do think like most things, it gets easier after a little time.
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 17, 2016 2:21:39 GMT -6
And then after all the hard choices, your average guitar strangler comes in, plays through your rig and can't function because he is used to a buzzing bee square wave to develop sustain. At least you have a good circuit for re-amping.....smile.....
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 3, 2017 17:35:40 GMT -6
There are two Princeton Circuits. The orginal had a single 6V6 tube running Class "A" which give you 5 watts at 1% distortion. In 1961 they introduce the Princeton "Deluxe" which was the same power as the Fender Deluxe using two 6V6 tubes in push/pull to produce 14 watts.
With the 5 watt amp a 10" speaker would be optimum. With the 14 watt amplifier then it could drive a 12" speaker which will be more efficient in the low end. The 12" will have a lower cut-off frequency than the 10".
The schematics I have seen for the single 6V6 and dual 6V6 Princeton's call for 8 speakers. To get maximum efficiency from the amp you need to have an 8 ohm speaker. If you parallel another 8 ohm speaker then you will loose about 30% power.
This won't really hurt the tube amp it will just be less efficient in its operation.
If you are going to use two 10" or two 12" speakers then I suggest you use 16 ohm speakers and parallel them. The Weber are incredibly good speakers.
We have a Blues Jr "Woody" in our Studio and it came with a 12" Jensen and we replaced it with a Weber. The Weber was a bit more efficient and much tighter in the low end and upper midrange. It has nice low end but its less flabby sounding than the Jensen.
I also have a Fender Deluxe type amp that I built from a 50's tube paging amp with 3 high impedance inputs and I added the Deluxe tone controls to the circuit. It has a really nice big output transformer with 4 ohm, 8 ohm and 16 ohm outputs.
It sounds great with an open back cabinet that has two 12" Jensen speakers which are wired in series and connected to 16 ohms.
Cheers, Dave
aamicrophones.com
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 3, 2017 18:31:11 GMT -6
Why not just see if you can order the speaker that comes with the Louis Electric Columbia (Princetone).?
I've heard them all, played 3/4 of all the classic Fenders ever made, and that Louis Electric smokes them all, with the possible exception of the 66' Super Reverb, but that's a different animal anyway.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2017 0:13:16 GMT -6
Well... jimwilliams and johneppstein , you gents certainly know your stuff but consider this 50 year old guy's experience too, please. I have found that the more efficient a speaker, the less appealing the sound. Thoughts? I disagree, but really that's totally subjective. Also there are some speakers, like some of the vintage Alnico Jensens, that are quite efficient and sound great, but have low power handling. Personally, I dislike the sound of many lower efficiency speakers because they have stiffer suspensions and more moving mass. |
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Post by jimwilliams on Apr 4, 2017 9:12:30 GMT -6
I also don't care for speaker distortion or cone breakup here. It's a ratty sound that takes quality away from a great amp. That was one reason Marshall went with 8 12" speakers rather than 4, so they don't all break up or fry. These days a 4x12 loaded with high power high efficiency speakers will curl your hair, far more SPL's than those original 12" Celestions.
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Post by Ward on Apr 4, 2017 11:18:46 GMT -6
I'm sure trading off tone for volume and sizzle is a fair bargain to a lot of players, but IMHO, speaker technology, from a tone perspective, peaked in about 1982.
Plug an old amp into a recent speaker cabinet and, more times than not, the reaction is EWWW. compared to a cabinet from the early 80s.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 4, 2017 12:02:54 GMT -6
I've seen a lot of older low power combo amps suffer from the loss of their original lightweight small magnet speaker, modern replacement being much cleaner and revealing the actual horrible sound of the amp itself. Usually fixed with the right old speaker stolen from an old console stereo. All depends on what you want/need.
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Post by Ward on Apr 6, 2017 7:34:08 GMT -6
I've seen a lot of older low power combo amps suffer from the loss of their original lightweight small magnet speaker, modern replacement being much cleaner and revealing the actual horrible sound of the amp itself. Usually fixed with the right old speaker stolen from an old console stereo. All depends on what you want/need. The amps were partially designed to overcome the shortcomings of loudspeakers. |
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Post by Ned Ward on May 20, 2017 14:34:02 GMT -6
I had a reissue Jensen C10Q in my '77 Princeton Reverb, and didn't like it. Switched to a Kendrick Black Frame and very happy. Worth a try.
I have the Weber Alnico 10A125's in my Tremolux cab and like them; they could also be an option.
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Post by jimbryson on May 20, 2017 14:41:05 GMT -6
I had a reissue Jensen C10Q in my '77 Princeton Reverb, and didn't like it. Switched to a Kendrick Black Frame and very happy. Worth a try. I have the Weber Alnico 10A125's in my Tremolux cab and like them; they could also be an option. I'm using a Guitar Warehouse speaker in my 77 Princeton and it's amazing. And they are not expensive. |
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