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Post by sozocaps on Jul 26, 2013 17:30:13 GMT -6
Stereo seems like you can get phase issues very easily no ?
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Post by svart on Jul 26, 2013 17:46:39 GMT -6
Not if your mics are far enough apart, or set up as ORTF. I've done both stereo and mono. Both can be useful. I prefer stereo though.
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Post by brianscheffer on Jul 26, 2013 23:12:41 GMT -6
Stereo for me. I really like the depth and spaciousness you can get from stereo room mics. Try MS as well. It's one of my favorite drum room techniques since you can get pretty creative with processing the mid and sides independently in a mix. Spaced omnis are great, too.
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Post by Ward on Jul 26, 2013 23:44:09 GMT -6
Best I've ever experienced:
2 Neumann U87s, 6' away from either SIDE of the drum kit, facing the center, set in omni and run through a compressor CRUSHING them!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 27, 2013 8:40:56 GMT -6
Definitely Stereo...It's disappointing to get something to mix and the room mics are mono.
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Post by sozocaps on Jul 27, 2013 11:07:59 GMT -6
Next question... what is the minimum room size to get a good room mic sound? Obviously the bigger higher ceilings the better....
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 27, 2013 11:24:30 GMT -6
Next question... what is the minimum room size to get a good room mic sound? Obviously the bigger higher ceilings the better.... good question!, My room is approx 20' long, and one long wall tapers down from 16.5' to 13', and the dreaded 8' ceilings  I have concrete floors(for now) and I'm building a rolling canopy approximately 8x8 w/adjustable height, loaded with about 1 foot of cotton fiber insulation, the front of my room(small wall) is going to be completely absorbed, i have 3 fully adjustable rolling gobo QRD diffusers, and a back wall QRD diffuser, 3 large "super chunk" style bass traps, a bunch of BAD(binary absorber/diffusors) panels under construction, as well as radial deflector/diffusors to throw on the floor randomly(cut 1/4's from very large concrete tubes w/bad panel binary patterns drilled in them, back side filled with cotton fiber insulation). I'm a drummer, and a bonzo freak, i love the big room sound, and i'm trying to trick my medium to small sized room into sounding bigger, the canopy should "lift" the ceiling, and the rest of the reflections should be heavily diffused, which i hope will do the trick? If nothing else, i can throw a delay on the room mics, and it should still sound great, i'm positive this set up will sound great on all instruments throwing a lower SPL level I'll keep you posted, i should be done this project in no more that 50 years!!!! lol! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2013 11:31:05 GMT -6
yo, tony. can we see some pics of that room? also, why didn't you go with some Corning 703 instead of Cotton Fiber insulation?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 27, 2013 11:51:48 GMT -6
yo, tony. can we see some pics of that room? also, why didn't you go with some Corning 703 instead of Cotton Fiber insulation? Yo Chuck!, the room is so blown up right now, it's silly! I will post some pics, i was planning on doing a full build thread, but i wanted to get a little farther along as to make the pics and story a little more interesting(this is jumping the gun for me, but i guess a little added pressure will get me off my bum) The reason i use ultra touch cotton insulation is primarily because you can sleep on it!lol! Fiberglass, is about as nasty as it gets, and with the rolling canopy thing, fibers are bound to get out of the canopy, also its a little less dense than 703 and 705 corning, which gives wider frequency band absorption because of better gas flow specs in deeper bass traps(which i definitely have) these are the most recent pics i have, i will try to get more going, and start a build thread? the QRD skylines are on rolling adjustable stands in 2 pair configurations(stacked 3 high in pics), with interchangeable absorber or radius diffusor on the backside, i have 3 of them. and will post pics in the looming build thread.    |
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Post by wreck on Jul 29, 2013 11:42:42 GMT -6
I've pretty much stopped using room mics. My room just never gave me a good room sound. Since I haven't been able to experiment with good room sounds, I am curious about how other engineers tend to utilize them. I am trying to create a reverb buss combination that simulates a good room - to the extent possible. It seems to me that spreading out some high end info can really widen the drum set. On the other hand, highs tend to roll off first and that tells us they are further away. So if I want a wide and deep mix, would I dedicate the drum tracks to depth (and some mid-range width) and use guitars for high-end width or vise versa? Or can one successfully put the cymbal info wide and get great depth out of the drums? I am just curious how others tend to think about it. I really haven't found a balance that I like yet.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jul 29, 2013 11:51:54 GMT -6
Same here. I first did it in the early 1980's, when all that "New Wave" gated reverb crap was done. Yes, I'm guilty of placing a Drawmer gate on an EMT240 too.
Mostly at mix time those tracks were dumped, more like 95% of the time.
The reason? The rooms sound like crap. I've used room sounds in great auditoriums, but those are not at all like a typical recording space.
These days, I rather cut dry and stick some Bricasti M7 on it. Nothing touches that except the world's finest spaces, the spaces you will never get to use. Some of them are sampled into the M7 though, for my benefit. Casey even added some modulation to the delays for me in software, now THAT's service!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2013 11:57:50 GMT -6
Damnit, Jim...you're not helping my Bricasti lust.
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Post by wreck on Jul 29, 2013 14:53:14 GMT -6
That unit is sooooooo expensive. I have come to believe that it is worth it given the cost of a real room, but I still can't have it.
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Post by sozocaps on Jul 29, 2013 15:46:02 GMT -6
Do we "need" a "real room" sound for mixing? I like my Lexicon 91 well for space around the drums. I want the room sound for explosiveness ...
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Post by Ward on Jul 31, 2013 17:07:56 GMT -6
Damnit, Jim...you're not helping my Bricasti lust. I thought you already had your first Bricasti, John? Everyone needs at least 1. It's on my list too!! Soon, I expect, I'll take the plunge. Cheers! Ward get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti
get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti get a bricasti
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Post by cenafria on Aug 1, 2013 1:26:31 GMT -6
Do we "need" a "real room" sound for mixing? I like my Lexicon 91 well for space around the drums. I want the room sound for explosiveness ... Well, I think good room sounds are invaluable for capturing "how hard" the drummer is hitting those drums. To get a sense of how he or she is playing. And for getting drums that sound like drums, IMHO. When I get tracks to mix with no room tracks, I use the studio's main room as a chamber without any predelay to simulate a drum sound. But I would speak up in favor of drum room sounds, one of the reasons for building my studio was to be able to capture good room sounds on drums, horns, strings, etc. I still get excited everyday when I put up those drum room mics on the board. The only time I heard a demonstration of the Bricasti as a drum room simulator I thought "well, I guess I would use it if I had to, but I'm glad I don't have to". Maybe I wasn't hearing the box's best drum room sound. And I'm sure the Bricasti is a great box. |
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Post by cenafria on Aug 1, 2013 1:27:56 GMT -6
Oh, and, for me, definitely stereo.
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Post by sozocaps on Aug 1, 2013 11:55:52 GMT -6
So is my room ok for drum mics. Its diffused massively, the size is 22x18x9
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Post by cenafria on Aug 1, 2013 12:14:53 GMT -6
So is my room ok for drum mics. Its diffused massively, the size is 22x18x9 Try the "delayed omnis on the floor" technique. You don't need such a big room. You get a lot of definition without any comb filter type artifacts. The Avenson omnis work pretty well for this and are pretty cheap. Always check the phase between close and room mics. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 1, 2013 18:14:15 GMT -6
So is my room ok for drum mics. Its diffused massively, the size is 22x18x9 I think if you "lift" the ceiling with absorption over a mic'd source, that size room can be killer, my dimensions are smaller, but similar, 19.5x16.5 taper down to 13.5 x 8' ceilings. I get good results "lifting" the ceiling. i personally think a pretty good room sound, is generally better that a great simulation, sounds more connected IMO |
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 2, 2013 4:06:18 GMT -6
So is my room ok for drum mics. Its diffused massively, the size is 22x18x9 Try the "delayed omnis on the floor" technique. You don't need such a big room. You get a lot of definition without any comb filter type artifacts. The Avenson omnis work pretty well for this and are pretty cheap. Always check the phase between close and room mics. This. Boundary effect means that the direct sound and the 1st order reflection hits as the same time. Changes how the size of the space feels, but often works great for small rooms! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2013 2:12:44 GMT -6
Mono room mic on the center axis of the kit. Foot off the ground. Always fed trough an impulse of some great room or bricasti impulses. Smashed with all buttons in mode, roll of the top end and some shelving eq, slice wherever it offends. Centres an glues the kit for me. Even in my 10x10 I still use it.
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Post by noah shain on Aug 3, 2013 12:46:06 GMT -6
I've had some success using short stereo delays spread wide to add some size. Sometimes distorted delay. Sometimes just sending snare, sometimes overheads. Getting the timing right is crucial. If you mess with the delay time you can push it or pull it a bit and give the impression that the drummer is more laid back or maybe that he's pushing. You gotta be subtle but it can be great. Sometimes it doesn't work.
As far as room mics I go back and forth. A smooth mono room with a good balance of drums to cymbals can really be special. I often have to move it a few times to find the right balance. When you dial in a good compressor setting it can be just magic. When I get it right I find it being the main "visual" for the kit. Meaning it gives you a good picture of the drums but isn't supplying all the impact and space...just a great vibe definition.
Stereo rooms often seem to end up really low in my mixes...like so low you can't hear em but you miss them when they're gone. Also cool to keep them low in some sections and raise them for sections where you wanna add a little excitement or spread or to help get the detail of the high part of the kit to cut through a dense wall of guitar or synth.
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I have concrete floors(for now) and I'm building a rolling canopy approximately 8x8 w/adjustable height, loaded with about 1 foot of cotton fiber insulation, the front of my room(small wall) is going to be completely absorbed, i have 3 fully adjustable rolling gobo QRD diffusers, and a back wall QRD diffuser, 3 large "super chunk" style bass traps, a bunch of BAD(binary absorber/diffusors) panels under construction, as well as radial deflector/diffusors to throw on the floor randomly(cut 1/4's from very large concrete tubes w/bad panel binary patterns drilled in them, back side filled with cotton fiber insulation).
