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Post by svart on Jun 22, 2018 7:53:22 GMT -6
So I just got word that a band I've been cultivating for the studio has (secretly) gone to another studio.
We've been talking for forever, they were all set to come in once they finished writing their latest LP. We agreed on everything and they've been telling me they were almost ready for a month now. Just a few days ago we talked and they were still telling me it was a GO.
So I go on FB last night and there's a pic of them in a studio.
I message them and ask, "you're in a studio, like today?"
And they take a while to answer but "yes, sorry. We got a good deal with this grammy winning guy and we couldn't turn it down". This is the SECOND band this other studio has scooped from my schedule this year, and their product don't even sound that good. I don't know how long they've been talking, but I don't think this is an overnight decision. I think they've been lying to me hedging their bet with this other studio, or possibly using my quote to get this other studio down in price.
I'm so tired of this industry. I'm so tired of essentially ALL of my time taken up trying to market myself against folks with a little clout who can lower their prices and constantly take my business I've spent a lot of time finding and working with.
This time I'm on the verge of quitting recording entirely. There is just no room for a mid-level studio anymore. You either have the guys charging 20$ a song to record in their living rooms, or you have fully kitted out larger studios lowering their prices to get the bands who have a little money to spend that would normally be in my range.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 22, 2018 8:35:46 GMT -6
Yeah, I have had a couple guys regionally who just give my clients offers of free time. It's kinda not a business, so it's hard to make business competition decisions, as there's no comparable set of parameters that would ever define a 'level playing field'. So often it'll be a well financed operation trying to get people in the door so they can justify staff, and they give it away for pennies on the dollar. After all, the whole thing is usually just a piece in a conglomerate business which serves to offset wild profits in another arena. So many similar experiences here, which I can't even begin to consider 'competition' because it isn't. It's someone else giving a band free time, because they don't actually have to meet a bottom line to stay in 'business'. And it sucks, but it sure is common. It lets you know your work isn't truly valued, and the whole run-up was an ego scam, especially when the end result is something you could have easily bested, given the chance. It lets you know the band probably isn't going anywhere, since they just proved they can't make a good decision, and they aren't averse to burning bridges 'on the way up' either.
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Post by svart on Jun 22, 2018 8:35:57 GMT -6
And yeah, I'm going to hear the "well I'm going to toot my own horn and say that I have no problem getting clients in a completely unrelated genre and location in the country with a lot less studio density, but I'm going to heavily insinuate that it's your work that is the problem, not any of the dozens of other related reasons", as well as the "just do stuff for free" or the always unhelpful "you gotta go to shows and stuff" (BTW I found this band at a show)..
There's literally hundreds of bedroom studios around here, and maybe a dozen larger public and private studios left in the city and they're all eating their own just to stay afloat.
I'm just not sure it's worth it anymore.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 22, 2018 8:47:27 GMT -6
Yeah I know of a guy in Alabama with a home studio who has enough business he's hired employees. He's not cheap. He has no competition, I think. I don't want to live in Alabama!
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Post by svart on Jun 22, 2018 8:49:13 GMT -6
Yeah, I have had a couple guys regionally who just give my clients offers of free time. It's kinda not a business, so it's hard to make business competition decisions, as there's no comparable set of parameters that would ever define a 'level playing field'. So often it'll be a well financed operation trying to get people in the door so they can justify staff, and they give it away for pennies on the dollar. After all, the whole thing is usually just a piece in a conglomerate business which serves to offset wild profits in another arena. So many similar experiences here, which I can't even begin to consider 'competition' because it isn't. It's someone else giving a band free time, because they don't actually have to meet a bottom line to stay in 'business'. And it sucks, but it sure is common. It lets you know your work isn't truly valued, and the whole run-up was an ego scam, especially when the end result is something you could have easily bested, given the chance. It lets you know the band probably isn't going anywhere, since they just proved they can't make a good decision, and they aren't averse to burning bridges 'on the way up' either. I think the band members in this band are stellar folks in a social aspect, but flakes in the business sense. I'm not even sure it's just them alone. So many of the younger bands are just flakes and it seems to be the times. They don't even seem to care if their own band members show up to the studio anymore. I love working with younger bands because the spectacle of watching fresh bands do their thing has always been the juice for me. I want to get back to that feeling of helping bring those amazing times to the bands, but I'm just so jaded with the cellphone zombies that (might) show up these days. Roughly 50% of my potential clients just stop replying or break up before they even record. The other half have a good chance of breaking up in the studio as well. I have probably 6 CD worth of tracks and at least 2 music videos that have gone un-released due to breakups after we started, a lot of this from the last 2 years. Now it seems there is just NO bands willing to record in a studio that isn't their own, or want a larger one with some kind of pedigree. The first band that got scooped by this other studio at least told me that they had hoped the producer/engineer's grammy connections would get them further, regardless of the quality of the product. I also know that at least half their record was written by this producer/engineer too, and that a publicist friend of his got that band picked up in some popular music rag review sections. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 22, 2018 8:52:38 GMT -6
Studios became a hobby in the late '70s.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 22, 2018 8:56:40 GMT -6
Around here I have had hobbyists who do remote recordings for free, full multi-track on location club work. Years ago that was my bread and butter. Those guys tend to want my shoulder to cry on about the things that bother them....about the expectations of working for free. They somehow miss the connection, and think I'm in some other mysterious realm untouched by their activities.
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Post by svart on Jun 22, 2018 8:56:48 GMT -6
Studios became a hobby in the late '70s. Ain't that the truth. I think studios made money up until the early 2000's here. That's when the prospect of home recording became viable and it's been downhill since. It's also about the time that people started accepting less quality output for cheaper costs and easier production. |
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Post by svart on Jun 22, 2018 9:06:34 GMT -6
Around here I have had hobbyists who do remote recordings for free, full multi-track on location club work. Years ago that was my bread and butter. Those guys tend to want my shoulder to cry on about the things that bother them....about the expectations of working for free. They somehow miss the connection, and think I'm in some other mysterious realm untouched by their activities. Around here it seems that nobody talks to each other. I've reached out to many studios to see about partnerships, etc and it's clearly every man for himself. Studio people show up to the meet-and-greets put on by various people and places, but nobody talks truth about the industry, it's always just marketing and trying to drum up business, even from other studios. I've talked with a few more open people and nobody wants to admit they aren't doing good business. They want to portray that they're in demand and always busy to attract clients. I can understand that because nobody wants to talk to a jaded studio owner who's borderline desperate for business. They get the used-car-salesman-pressure vibes and end up bolting. you have to be upbeat, friendly, accommodating for every single little thing, cheap as hell, and put out a product on par with the best... Just to get someone to think about using you. One guy I talked to said I should make bands pay down payments.. Which I tried many years ago.. And it turned more bands away than it compelled to show up. It's almost like the thought of having to commit monetarily is repulsive because having to put money up front makes it seem like money is the only thing that's important... But on the other hand, bands have come to the studio and tried to wear me down on price by nitpicking my work.. "That doesn't sound like I wanted, I shouldn't have to pay for that hour", etc.. |
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Post by christopher on Jun 23, 2018 1:46:23 GMT -6
Im not in the biz right now. But here's how I paid the bills, -which are honestly impossible: I approached bands by letting them rehearse while recording in my studio for "rehearsal rate".. $10-20/hr. Then I'd setup some mics, hit record and if I trusted them, I'd leave for a couple hours. I mean at that price its not worth me sticking around right? Plus they can feel comfy without me there. I'd come back to lock up and clean, and after they'd leave I'd do a rough mix of one song, scroll to each song and bounce, then burn it all on a CD. Then I'd listen in the car, and hear what they sound like when nobody is around. No headphone mixes, no click tracks, just them being them. Then we'd schedule another rehearsal so I could hand them the CD. They were always curious. And if we got along, then usually they'd ask me about making a more serious recording. But this business is just ridiculous! I mean, I try to never talk bad about anyone out there anymore, and if they decided to go elsewhere I wish them all the best of luck. Sadly yeah, most clients get stolen by someone. Even by their friends for "songwriting" decisions lol, or after all the hard work is done they get stolen by someone's friend for "mastering." So hard for me to ever to get the finish line without a detour in the weeds somehow. But it's still fun way to see income generated. Beats my current job anyway.
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Post by keymod on Jun 23, 2018 4:20:45 GMT -6
Sadly, " Cellphone Zombies " says it all..... Attention spans have been reduced to milliseconds and people are slowly becoming incapable of putting in the effort to do anything of value. If there isn't instant gratification, they move on to something else, bouncing around like a cork on the ocean, chasing promises of something - for - nothing.
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Post by M57 on Jun 23, 2018 7:00:32 GMT -6
One guy I talked to said I should make bands pay down payments.. Which I tried many years ago.. And it turned more bands away than it compelled to show up. It's almost like the thought of having to commit monetarily is repulsive because having to put money up front makes it seem like money is the only thing that's important... But on the other hand, bands have come to the studio and tried to wear me down on price by nitpicking my work.. "That doesn't sound like I wanted, I shouldn't have to pay for that hour", etc.. How far out in advance do you book? You could try splitting the difference and require them to make the down payments x days before the session. At least that way, you have a couple days to scramble to plan B. Man, it just sounds like a brutal business to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 7:45:40 GMT -6
Studios became a hobby in the late '70s. Pretty blunt, but completely true. Up till then most every half-decent town had a few people with a 4-track, some kind of desk, a plate and a handful of mics--all in 600 square feet. They had skills and fair rates and it was always fun to book a day and let a professional take care of getting the tracks down. Then came cheap multitracks, followed by ADATs, EMUs and the beginning of the world we know now. Those studio owners probably always struggled and it didn't take much of a downturn to wipe them out. Even the big guys have been affected. I was in a certain 'legendary' studio a few years back and asked what their day rate was for a room and an engineer. The rate was about a tenth of what I expected it to be. A large number of the big facilities pay the rent by doing post-production. There may be pictures of famous musicians on the wall, but the rooms are mainly used for scoring--if at all. You've probably heard this wisecrack in other contexts, but it certainly applies here: The way to make a small fortune is to start with a large fortune and buy a recording studio. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 23, 2018 9:55:20 GMT -6
In the late '60s, a tax law change allowed investors to take a tax credit (not a deduction, a 100 % CREDIT!) for the production costs of movies and record albums. A number of Pro Audio dealers began selling doctors and lawyers turnkey 24 track studios (think Westlake and MCI) that they could use to bill themselves $150 an hour for. When that loophole was finally closed, the owners of major studios found themselves in direct competition with members of their own staff who had purchased a studio for pennies on the dollar. Rates plummeted and most of the majors ended up selling out to trust fund kids.
The good news is that this was also what allowed Spielberg, Coppola, and Lucas to produce films outside of funding from the Hollywood establishment.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 23, 2018 11:36:01 GMT -6
I know of at least 2 large rooms within a 1/2 hour drive of me that charge $75 an hour for the big rooms. One has a 72 channel SSL K and the other has an API Legacy Plus. There is no way they are making money on this. Another just opened within walking distance of my apartment. 48 channel VR  in a seriously professional A room and a Euphonix in the B room. $175 an hour. And if you want any of the nice mics or any outboard it’s a day rental price on top. I can call up any of them and book time pretty much whenever I want. People just aren’t using studios much anymore - just how it is. I’m lucky enough to have a good amount of local friends in the business - and we all look out for each other. Be it throwing each other gigs when we can’t do something, to throwing each other vocal tuning or drum editing when we know the other guy is having a slow week. These are relationships I’ve grown over the past 10+ years. We don’t compete with each other, we help each other out, and we don’t give up on our prices to beat up on each other if we are competing with clients. I also have my mastering folks I send bands to after I mix. I’m not a mastering engineer and I don’t want to be, or pretend to be. Everybody I work with gets sent to my mastering engineer of choice, and in return she sends bands that want to record my way. I also don’t know many people that don’t have some sort of side hustle. It’s a must for me if for nothing other than getting super bored out of my mind if I have an open week. When I have free time I’m doing woodworking and selling coffee tables, picture frames, cabinets, etc for extra cash/savings. |
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Post by ericn on Jun 29, 2018 21:37:03 GMT -6
In any business somebody is going to try to steal your client, fact of life. You have 2 choices
1 under cut the competition and win on price, bad option. If you win on price you have to know somebody else is always going to undercut you as well and this is one of the reasons why nobody can make a living as a studio, there is always going to be somebody who has to make his rent and will drop his pants, but do you want that client.
2 Bring value and build relationships, this is about the long game. Relationships are everything, your clients sell you, you sell your clients. It’s about supporting each other, going beyond just doing the job and the unspoken favor bank.
Example in my pimping days I would get grief for not always selling the DIY route, instead when I judged the potential client would be over their head I pushed them towards a local studio client. This was playing the long game, my studio clients new how much business I was sending them and would grow their businesses as well as they new I would take care of their clients. The people I sent them were also great at bringing me business because they knew I would do right by them.
Don’t just go after bands, build relationships with club owners, SR providers, MI shops let them sell you.
Look with almost no local advertising I had 30% plus growth every year and increased profit margin every year, it’s about people not deals.
Realize you won’t close everybody nobody can. Part of the job is reading the client figuring out this client wants, not what they say they want but what they really want. I was drilled that in order to get the deal you always have to try to close and that’s total BS for every person that works on there is one where it will lose the deal, hell Im the guy who hates the hard close I’ll walk if you try it on me!
You don’t want to sell ? Well guess what everybody in every job has to sell something so get used to it!
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Post by svart on Jun 29, 2018 22:08:08 GMT -6
In any business somebody is going to try to steal your client, fact of life. You have 2 choices 1 under cut the competition and win on price, bad option. If you win on price you have to know somebody else is always going to undercut you as well and this is one of the reasons why nobody can make a living as a studio, there is always going to be somebody who has to make his rent and will drop his pants, but do you want that client. 2 Bring value and build relationships, this is about the long game. Relationships are everything, your clients sell you, you sell your clients. It’s about supporting each other, going beyond just doing the job and the unspoken favor bank. Example in my pimping days I would get grief for not always selling the DIY route, instead when I judged the potential client would be over their head I pushed them towards a local studio client. This was playing the long game, my studio clients new how much business I was sending them and would grow their businesses as well as they new I would take care of their clients. The people I sent them were also great at bringing me business because they knew I would do right by them. Don’t just go after bands, build relationships with club owners, SR providers, MI shops let them sell you. Look with almost no local advertising I had 30% plus growth every year and increased profit margin every year, it’s about people not deals. Realize you won’t close everybody nobody can. Part of the job is reading the client figuring out this client wants, not what they say they want but what they really want. I was drilled that in order to get the deal you always have to try to close and that’s total BS for every person that works on there is one where it will lose the deal, hell Im the guy who hates the hard close I’ll walk if you try it on me! You don’t want to sell ? Well guess what everybody in every job has to sell something so get used to it! I'll cut to the chase and just say, yeah man, I know! I've done all you mentioned. At least twice through. Like I said, building relationships here means the others want things from you, but never, ever forward you work. Most of the club owners around here also have their own studios or are invested in one or more. It's impossible to get in with any of them, and a lot of them dislike it when you shill your own studio in their clubs too. You can forget forging alliances with other studios. Most of the time, if a band starts to diy their recordings you can bet they're going to try to open a studio as well.. The problem is that they all do it, and it floods the market and you have tons of bad studios giving all studios a bad name. that only adds to the inherent animosity between bands and studios. So now you have tons of bands who've gone to bad studios who now complain that all studios are bad and want to DIY their own records.. and then they eventually open their own studios thinking they can do better.. And the cycle starts anew. so now you're stuck having to compete with people recording for super cheap but you'll never be cheap enough for the new bands and those that aren't really serious about it but you'll be too cheap for the real serious bands and they'll think you're some kind of fly-by-night operation and steer clear. Meanwhile everybody you meet in the local industry wants a piece of your action but is completely unwilling to share theirs. Like I said I've tried going to the meet and greets and all of that and everybody has an angle to try to get something out of you. It's depressing. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 29, 2018 22:24:48 GMT -6
Svart, What city are you in?
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Post by M57 on Jun 30, 2018 4:46:30 GMT -6
2 Bring value and build relationships, this is about the long game. Relationships are everything, your clients sell you, you sell your clients. It’s about supporting each other, going beyond just doing the job and the unspoken favor bank. ^^^This^^^ It's not a perfect analogy, but I work at an independent 'private' PK-8 school in a district where the public schools are very good, and our tuition is not cheap. Yes, you have to have 'value', that's a given, but from an admissions and development perspective, it's ALL about building community and relationships. |
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Post by svart on Jun 30, 2018 8:41:30 GMT -6
Svart, What city are you in? Atlanta |
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Post by svart on Jun 30, 2018 8:44:12 GMT -6
2 Bring value and build relationships, this is about the long game. Relationships are everything, your clients sell you, you sell your clients. It’s about supporting each other, going beyond just doing the job and the unspoken favor bank. ^^^This^^^ It's not a perfect analogy, but I work at an independent 'private' PK-8 school in a district where the public schools are very good, and our tuition is not cheap. Yes, you have to have 'value', that's a given, but from an admissions and development perspective, it's ALL about building community and relationships. It's different for recording, since it's not required for life.. I'd also bet that it's really easy to recruit because people who can afford private schools are likely already looking for one.. Whereas the recording world, people aren't looking for studios, they're looking to record. There's a difference. They don't see a benefit to spending thousands of dollars at a studio to get a better record when they can spend half that on themselves and get a marginal record and some gear. Recording is a means to get their work out there, and the medium in which they'll become famous. A means to an end. Besides, both of the bands were bands I've recorded before and have always been happy with my work. It's just that there's no loyalty in today's world and it's easy to sway artists, who are wanting fame more than anything, with a few promises and a little clout. |
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Post by M57 on Jun 30, 2018 9:47:52 GMT -6
^^^This^^^ It's not a perfect analogy, but I work at an independent 'private' PK-8 school in a district where the public schools are very good, and our tuition is not cheap. Yes, you have to have 'value', that's a given, but from an admissions and development perspective, it's ALL about building community and relationships. It's different for recording, since it's not required for life.. I'd also bet that it's really easy to recruit because people who can afford private schools are likely already looking for one..
Yeah, an education is required for , but public schools are FREE, and the ones in and around our town are among the best in the state. Very few of our families can simply "afford" to send their kids to us. In fact, a significant portion of our students' families receive some kind of financial aid. For many, they view it as a necessary hardship/sacrifice so their children can succeed, and we spend a lot of time and resources reinforcing that notion. Believe me, in this day and age - we wouldn't be thriving if we didn't market ourselves.
Whereas the recording world, people aren't looking for studios, they're looking to record. There's a difference. They don't see a benefit to spending thousands of dollars at a studio to get a better record when they can spend half that on themselves and get a marginal record and some gear. Recording is a means to get their work out there, and the medium in which they'll become famous. A means to an end. In other words, they should view using a quality studio as a necessary hardship/sacrifice so they become famous. Granted, the analogy is not perfect, but the tenets of success are the same.It's just that there's no loyalty in today's world and it's easy to sway artists.. Damn musicians - we're so fickle 
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 30, 2018 10:10:19 GMT -6
The real problem is there’s basically a normal fixed amount of dollars for studio recording based on local GDP. I forget the formula I read but for Houston (where I live) it came out to about a million dollars in available annual revenue. Divide that by the studios and... there’s just not enough to go around. But, with such a small barrier to entry there is not much to keep that pie from being sliced up a thousand ways.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 30, 2018 11:21:03 GMT -6
To me, the problem is Les Paul Memorial Overdub Parties where no studio is required as opposed to recording ensembles. The irony is that I've never heard anybody do an overdub that was as good as the same musician playing as part of an ensemble. This, of course, assumes a certain level of competence.
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Post by M57 on Jun 30, 2018 11:56:54 GMT -6
To me, the problem is Les Paul Memorial Overdub Parties where no studio is required as opposed to recording ensembles. The irony is that I've never heard anybody do an overdub that was as good as the same musician playing as part of an ensemble. This, of course, assumes a certain level of competence. This is an excellent point. I'm actually a bit embarrassed to say that I haven't played with another musician in over two decades, at least not in a jazz/rock/folk setting. Granted, I was too busy wearing a classical hat for half of that. But now as I stumble back in and dabble in songwriting, I think about it all the time as I record. I long for the real-time interaction, especially when I think of the great jazz ensembles that played a part in creating my musical aesthetic. On the other hand, I believe the sound/vibe of LPMOP has it's pros as well. It made a splash with folks like Les Paul, and I'm sure I'll be corrected on this, but I'm going to say that the Beatles brought it into the mainstream. Since then, and for better or worse, it has become the defining and archetypical sound of these times. As for "competence." I dunno. I like to think of it as a different set of skills. And it occurs to me that in this day and age where there's "no money" in recording, gone are the days when the band disappears for 6 months to record an album. Today's musicians put bread on the table by playing out. In a way, things are coming full circle. Kind of ironic, don't ya think? |
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in a seriously professional A room and a Euphonix in the B room. $175 an hour. And if you want any of the nice mics or any outboard it’s a day rental price on top. 
