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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 8:36:17 GMT -6
For the guys always pushing the Gefell UM70 as the most excellent all-rounder LDC, you have convinced me...  But question is, is there anywhere with a list of all the different versions and what is different about them? In your opinion, which is the best sounding? There seem to be quite a number of variations, including the currently available UMT 70 S for about $1800 new. If I wanted a to save a bit by going second hand on Reverb etc., which model should I hold out for? Or are they all good? Any particular ones to avoid? Thanks in advance. I'd like to end up with just one great LDC, and a pair of great SDCs (already have KM84s). Then I'll stop, promise! |
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2018 9:44:01 GMT -6
The "T" model stands for TransformerLESS. It's the current model. If you're OK with just cardiod pattern, also consider the M71(s). The LDC versions I like are the M71S or UM70. I like how the transformer sounds. I prefer to find models from the mid to late 90's. I can generally visually spot them, but don't quite know how to tell you what they look like. If they look super old and beat, they are probably from before that period. If they say RFT, they are probably from before that period. When the iron curtain fell in 92 was it?, Gefell had access to the western world and better materials. That's the era I like. That's not to say the earlier ones are bad, but they (quite possibly) have a lot more wear on them. Good luck!
PS -
The versions of UM70's I own have the 692 preamp body with swappable heads. The M71S's I own are one piece (non screw off head basket). I also have M70 (SDC) heads which screw on to their 692 bodies as well. They are nice - but are brighter than the KM84's. Kind of half way between a vintage C451 and KM84.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 9:47:50 GMT -6
Thank you drbill I generally prefer the transformer sound too, so shall try to avoid the "T" monikers. Just cardioid also fine, so will also look at the 71's. If I find a specific one for sale I think looks like the business, I will post here! |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 24, 2018 9:49:00 GMT -6
I was thinking the UM was gone before 95, whenever I bought my UMT in the mid-late '90's the UM was already history.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 9:51:52 GMT -6
Thanks EmRR Do you have a take on the T vs. non-T models? |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 24, 2018 9:54:38 GMT -6
I've never heard a UM, only the UMT I have. It probably depends on how many transformers you have in your chain.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 9:58:15 GMT -6
I have a TG2 pre so transformer in and out. Do you love your UMT?
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Post by mulmany on Aug 24, 2018 10:01:51 GMT -6
I think all the talk on here about them has made the prices go up.
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2018 10:02:28 GMT -6
Cool. Good luck. These are definitely older : www.ebay.com/itm/pair-of-Neumann-Gefell-UM70-RFT-mv692-mic-with-cardioid-omni-fig8-caps/191769853652?hash=item2ca65fbed4:g:y9EAAOSwHPlWgosFNot seeing any of the newer generation on Ebay OR reverb right now. These are getting harder to find. The older ones may be great but be aware the capsules may need re-skinning depending on how old they are. One way to discriminate - the older versions often have Touchel connectors and need a power supply. I believe all the mid 90's and up are XLR and run on 48v. Of additional note : the PVC used on the M7 capsules can crack over time, and that's really the thing that is of most concern. REAL M7 capsules like the Gefell mics are like nothing else you can get on the market, but they are delicate and can be prone to deterioration. Although I've not heard anything bad out of mine. Klaus's thoughts on the OriGINAL M7, re-skinning and other options : repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=37100.0PPS - don't let that scare you off..... Good luck! |
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2018 10:03:50 GMT -6
I was thinking the UM was gone before 95, whenever I bought my UMT in the mid-late '90's the UM was already history. ?? Mine are all from the mid 90's when Gefell first imported into the US. Klaus would know when the crossover point was.... |
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2018 10:05:26 GMT -6
It probably depends on how many transformers you have in your chain. I have a bunch of transformers in my chain. Still prefer the non-T models, but the "T" models are spectacular too. Personal preference. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2018 10:06:39 GMT -6
I think all the talk on here about them has made the prices go up. They used to be tons of them available. Now.....not so much. Prices haven't got up THAT much though. Availability has gone way down though. |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 24, 2018 10:09:35 GMT -6
I like it more and more going into my 3rd decade of owning it! I found it problematic with the average garage band I was recording when I got it, it absolutely did not work as a lead vocal mic with a bunch of punk screamers, and you can temper that with the built out opinion that those singers call for dynamic mics that are less revealing and screechy when pushed. Many others will have a different opinion, many of those with that opinion will not have actually worked with a bottom level amateur garage band. So it was a profound disappointment when I got it, because my expectations of it being a universal lead vocal mic were wrong. It does sound a lot like my MK47 with Thiersch Blue M7 capsule, smoother on the top and slightly leaner on the bottom but definitely kissing cousins, many many similar traits. Vastly quieter too. Some people complain about the leaner bottom which allows for closer working distances. It is a solid all-rounder for sure, I get many great sounds out of it. I'm more likely to reach for it over the MK47.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 24, 2018 10:12:39 GMT -6
I was thinking the UM was gone before 95, whenever I bought my UMT in the mid-late '90's the UM was already history. ?? Mine are all from the mid 90's when Gefell first imported into the US. Klaus would know when the crossover point was.... I bought mine in April of 1997 after a few months research, and in that time there was no UM model available to my knowledge, only the UMT. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2018 10:19:59 GMT -6
Must have been a pretty narrow window between 92 and 97 then.....
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2018 10:21:19 GMT -6
Anyone know when Gefell became Microtek Gefell (MTG)? My 692's are definitely MTG.
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2018 10:23:40 GMT -6
I like it more and more going into my 3rd decade of owning it! I found it problematic with the average garage band I was recording when I got it, it absolutely did not work as a lead vocal mic with a bunch of punk screamers, and you can temper that with the built out opinion that those singers call for dynamic mics that are less revealing and screechy when pushed. Many others will have a different opinion, many of those with that opinion will not have actually worked with a bottom level amateur garage band. So it was a profound disappointment when I got it, because my expectations of it being a universal lead vocal mic were wrong. It does sound a lot like my MK47 with Thiersch Blue M7 capsule, smoother on the top and slightly leaner on the bottom but definitely kissing cousins, many many similar traits. Vastly quieter too. Some people complain about the leaner bottom which allows for closer working distances. It is a solid all-rounder for sure, I get many great sounds out of it. I'm more likely to reach for it over the MK47. Yes, ^^^ should be noted that for vocals especially, you need to get RIGHT in on the mic. I don't consider this a "problem" but more of an opportunity to be able to get the mic closer to some sources without ugly proximity taking over. |
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Post by svart on Aug 24, 2018 10:28:53 GMT -6
I have a UM70S, with the nickel body, but with the removable black and silver head. Seems to be right in the middle of that transition period between the originals and the reissues. I keep thinking of selling it, but then I always end up keeping it. I love the thing but I also rarely use it. I know the prices have gone up and I could use the money, but I also don't think I'd find another one is such good condition for the price I paid for it years ago. Here's a pic:  |
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Post by svart on Aug 24, 2018 10:34:08 GMT -6
I also took the head apart a year ago to fix the pattern switch and check out the capsule. Luckily I didn't see any of the crazing that happens on the older M7 PVC capsules when they dry out.. Hopefully that won't happen soon..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 10:53:46 GMT -6
Not so worried about getting one either really soon, or crazy cheap. Will bide my time until the right one comes up on AudioFanzine. One beauty of being in the EU is being able to keep ones eye on the non-English speaking gear hawking sites, plus the fact that the EU made gear is generally cheaper here.
Thanks for all insights so far.
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Post by popmann on Aug 24, 2018 11:03:53 GMT -6
The "T" doesn't sound remotely like the same mic to me. Better/worse....I have learned to simply say is subjective. It's much less subjective that they sound VERY different, at least through a clean preamp.
But, also....mine rarely SEES Cardioid....so, I don't think anything I like or don't will translate to the 71. I don't really get the love of cardioid LDCs by the internet public. In home studios? Ok. I guess that's another discussion point....I HAVE used my in Card before....but, in finishing up this record, I've not used it ONCE in cardioid. The acoustic guitars got cut in omni....the amps in Fig8....scratch vocals all fig8. I don't see any reason that would change when I cut finals....though, honestly I'm always having the internal debate of whether I'm going to nurturer insecurities bring in some audio woobie for the sessions. "You is smart....you is kind....you is important...."
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 24, 2018 12:59:57 GMT -6
Anyone know when Gefell became Microtek Gefell (MTG)? My 692's are definitely MTG. 1928 Georg Neumann and Erich Rickmann establish the
limited partnership Georg Neumann & Co. The idea behind
this new company lies in manufacturing microphones
following the capacitive transducer concept. An aim
they manage to achieve for the first time in serial production
with the condenser microphone CMV 3
1933 participation at the „Große Deutsche Funkausstellung”
leads to a massive rise of sales within
Germany and of exports.
During this time, representations are set up in
England, France, the USA and India.
1936 the Olympic Games in Berlin provide the first
live test for the classic M 7 electrode in a tube set-up
as developed by Georg Neumann. It is still manufactured
to this day. The so-called „Neumann bottle” can
already be equipped with different capsules in order
to change patterns. The path that the company has
chosen since its founding proves to be the right one.
Extensive practical experience leads to a continuous
improvement of products.
1943 during the Second World War, the principal laboratory
on Michaelkirchstraße in Berlin undergoes
damage both by fire and bombs. To avoid further
bombings, the entire company and the principal laboratory
are transferred to Gefell.
1945/46
1943 during the Second World War, the principal laboratory
on Michaelkirchstraße in Berlin undergoes
damage both by fire and bombs. To avoid further
bombings, the entire company and the principal laboratory
are transferred to Gefell.
1945/46 Germany is divided into four sectors after
the surrender. Thuringia, initially occupied by the
Americans is exchanged for a part of Berlin (Potsdam
Treaty) and handed over to the Soviet Union, which
changes the situation in Gefell completely.
1947 employees returning from Gefell establish a small workshop in Berlin (West) mainly
for repair of microphones. This workshop becomes Georg Neumann GmbH, the second
Neumann company, now owned by Sennheiser.
1950 New condenser measurement microphones are
developed and become part of the serial production.
1956 the centralist regime of the GDR forces private
companies to accept state co-ownership. Like thousands
of other companies, Georg Neumann & Co. becomes a
socalled BSB („Betrieb mit staatlicher Beteiligung” –
company under state participation).
During the 1950s, radio stations in Berlin are rebuilt and
production in Gefell continues, both of the known microphone
types and of new ones: Tube microphone preamplifier CMV 563
With the microphone capsules M 55 (omni), M 7 (cardioid),
M 8 (figure eight) and M 9 (omni) as well as M 7 S, M 8 S and
M 9 S with short handles Tube condenser microphone UM 57,
switchable patterns, omni-cardioid-figure eight.
During the three decades from the 1960s to the 1980s, production
in the studio sector is mainly carried out according to
the demands of radio applications. In close cooperation with
„Rundfunk und Fernsehtechnisches Zentralamt RFZ“ (central
radio and television council) the following microphones are
developed and produced until 1989: ZUM 64, M 582, MV 690,
MV 691, MV 692, PM 750 and PM 860.
1961 the building of the Berlin Wall sets a seal on the division
of the city. The socialist GDR also cuts off all communication
that has existed to this point between Georg Neumann & Co. in
Gefell and Georg Neumann GmbH in Berlin.
1972 the limited partnership Georg Neumann & Co. in Gefell is
expropriated and renamed VEB Mikrofontechnik Gefell. Further
use of the Neumann trademark is prohibited by the GDR.
Instead, products are now marked with the brand RFT.
1989 the Berlin Wall comes down. The Treuhandanstalt takes charge of the company in
Gefell with the aim of reprivatising it. The expropriated limited partnership Georg Neumann
& Co. files for restitution of its company.
1993 the company Microtech Gefell GmbH is returned to
the limited partnership Georg Neumann & Co.– now Georg
Neumann KG. After more than twenty years of state imposed
the company now produces under the new registered trademark.
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Post by iamasound on Aug 25, 2018 4:55:43 GMT -6
I have the UMT70S, the newer non-transformer offering. It has a fantastic capsule that holds up when I pour heavy dB laden vocals on it, never collapsing on me and performing in spades every time and on anything I point it at. I tend to use it lots in omni for vocals and also in figure 8 for the side a mid/side affair with acoustic instruments when it calls for it. I lately have found another useful sound with it by gain staging softly out of the preamp and using the front end of my Warm WA76 to push it's Cinemag input transformer to taste. It adds colour to the natural cleanliness of the mic and lets it cut through in a denser mix, be it a voice or an instrument.
Have fun with your's.
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Post by Ward on Aug 25, 2018 18:42:29 GMT -6
Anyone know when Gefell became Microtek Gefell (MTG)? My 692's are definitely MTG. 1928 Georg Neumann and Erich Rickmann establish the
limited partnership Georg Neumann & Co.
SNIP
1993 the company Microtech Gefell GmbH is returned to
the limited partnership Georg Neumann & Co.– now Georg
Neumann KG. After more than twenty years of state imposed
the company now produces under the new registered trademark.
It should never have been named anything other than Goerg Neumann & Company, once again. |
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Post by andersmv on Sept 28, 2024 15:12:14 GMT -6
I'm going to bring this thread back from the dead. I just got two UM-70's, I'm planning on doing a video on them because: A: There's not a whole lot of info out there on them, which is surprising considering it's one of the best mics ever made B: They're sentimental to me (belong to my mentor from the first studio I worked in), and I want to do a song with them. Even the newer UMT transformerless versions amazing.  |
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