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Post by ragan on Jan 31, 2022 8:37:55 GMT -6
They are also full of things like this: "Malone references a study where lipid nanoparticles were detected in ovaries of rats. He makes an unfounded connection between menstrual irregularities and lipids in the vaccine as a result. He fails to mention that this study detected less than 0.1% of the total lipids administered in rat ovaries 48 hours after vaccination. That is not a significant accumulation of lipids at all. Menstrual changes have been reported after both mRNA and adenovirus vaccines. Any potential link is likely to be a result of the immune response to vaccination rather than a specific vaccine ingredient. Our uterus is part of our immune system. Anything that affects our immune response (stress of a pandemic, vaccination, COVID-19 itself) can impact menstrual cycles" And this: "Malone claims that because the spike protein of the virus and mRNA vaccines are the same (except for two amino acids), the side effects of them are the same. He fails to mention that the virus itself contains numerous other genes and proteins (a total of 29 proteins) including the spike protein that enable the virus to infect us, reproduce, cause damage to our bodies and cells, and potentially kill us. The spike protein made from the vaccine does not have the additional components that can lead to the type of damage infection with SARS-CoV-2 can." I'm not gonna pretend to be qualified to judge those claims/counter claims, I'm just pointing out that the members of the scientific community objecting to Malone's high profile media stands have more specificity in their complaint than you're giving them credit for. We have a big mess of a thread full of stuff pertaining to Dr. Kory and his claims, so I'm not gonna go there. Malone is a powerful voice for the vaccine-averse cause, though, to be sure. He's extremely credentialed and very qualified by anyone's measure. There's a thing that happens with people sometimes, though, where they have a grievance with their peers and they sort of cash out their professional expertise for fame and attention (Weinstein is one that fits this profile). Note, I'm not claiming that I know that that's what Malone is doing, cause I can't really know that. But he has a grudge about the work he contributed to as a grad student that later led to mRNA development and he has been very vocal about his belief that he was "written out" of the history of mRNA vaccines (despite a couple of his papers still being cited in prominent, current mRNA research). He's also been willing to amplify faulty science. There was that Canadian study showing a really high rate of heart inflammation from the vaccines. It got uploaded to a pre-print server (a newish phenomenon where research gets quasi-published before peer review) and became a darling of the anti-vax crowd almost overnight. Malone promoted the study as proof of the harm vaccines can cause, but then the study got retracted because the math was way, way off. They had the total number of vaccine doses 25x lower than the data showed, resulting in a 25x higher rate of heart inflammation than was actually there. When the math error was pointed out, the studies' authors unanimously withdrew it, but Malone didn't take back any of it or even take down the posts he'd used to amplify it. That's a problem. A guy with his level of scientific training being willing to do that stuff is a red flag for me. So is his use of pseudoscience buzz terms like "mass-formation psychosis" (a fav riff of his during the Rogan interview) with no data behind them. A guy like Malone, when he was still doing research and not activism, would never have been ok with that. He has a real scientific background and stuff like that just wouldn't have flown. It reminds me of a guy like Richard Dawkins. Brilliant scientist who cashes in and makes a big name for himself in the non-scientific world by going way outside the bounds of his actual research. When people who are as experienced and credentialed as Malone stop participating in settings where the stuff they say will have to pass muster with people who know as much as they do about their field, and instead start going on Fox News and Joe Rogan, where they can say whatever they want to an audience who is primed up for the hot contrarian take, it tends to set off my B.S. detector. I mean, how is Rogan supposed to evaluate the stuff a guy like Malone is claiming? I don't blame him for just going "wow...." the whole time. What else is he supposed to say? I get that it's exciting content and very good for business, but I'm not at all sold on the idea that its goal is to get at the truth. You could certainly interpret Malone's flight from the scientific community and toward the Joe Rogans of the world as him just being passionate about his political and professional views. Or you can interpret it as him being done with being a scientist and ready to be a media personality. Either way, he's taking big liberties with his reputation as an expert and has shown a willingness to bend or break the truth. If someone has already decided that Malone is some kind of scientific folk hero, maybe they can overlook that stuff. I can't. So, there are substantial reasons that guys like Malone or Kory aren't credible to me. Doesn't mean I think that everything they say is wrong, nor does it mean that I'm trying to deny the experience and knowledge of a guy like Malone, but it does mean that I don't have faith in them to be reliable witnesses. I’ll try to get into the specifics of your examples sometime later but one could also look at a Malone, Weinstein, etc…and say they have risked everything for what they believe. They believe they see certain things heading in the wrong direction and they feel a responsibility to take a stand. Isn’t that what we’re celebrating Neil Young for? When we talk about “medical professionals” that signed the letter of concern about JRE we have to keep in mind that his guests are also medical professionals. It’s not like he’s had a bunch of spiritual healers on there. Kory & McCollough both have stated their driving force is because they were tired of watching people die of covid with no treatment. They were in the trenches from day one & I believe them. Why would they both testify before congress under penalty of perjury if they were just making up a bunch of stuff to shift careers and sell out? Why are they still treating covid patients to this day if they don’t genuinely care? The funny thing is, the opinions that have been formed about the above mentioned gentlemen have been formed by people on this forum that I’d bet any amount of money have not took the time to watch a single full episode of any of them on JRE. In fact, I'd bet the same that Neil Young hasn't either. So, everyone is welcome to continue to try and cast them as sell outs or frauds but I’m just as politely as I can muster trying to point out that the majority of people aren’t buying it anymore. There was a time(on the covid thread)…and in society in general…where people could just say “conspiracy theorist” or “fraud” or “misinformation” or “that source is no good” and the discussion would be shut down. Those days are over. 2 years into this and people don’t have the patience any longer to sit around & wait for everything to be randomize controlled double blind placeboed. They want to know why next to nothing makes sense. Why does my kid have to wear a mask 8 hours a day at school when my governor keeps getting caught maskless at events I’m not allowed to be at? Why did I get fired from my hospital for passing on this vaccine when my covid positive co-worker can now keep treating patients? Why did you tell me masks don’t work, now I have to wear one walking in the restaurant…sit down to eat, take it off for an hour…then put it back on to walk out. I could go on and on and on. Pardon my french but you can only serve people chicken shit while telling them it’s chicken salad for so long. We are done. I still contend that a sincere discussion on this particular thread has to start with listening to at least Malone & McCullough on JRE(because that is what NY was complaining about). Otherwise, you’re just reading second hand opinions and casting judgment on these guys. The good news is you can listen to somewhere between 4-6 hours straight from the horses mouth. Not interested? Fine, but then don’t be upset if I’m not taking your criticisms of them too seriously. If you do take the time to listen, I bet you’ll find a lot you agree with and some you don’t and that’s fine, I feel the same! After listening though, ask yourself sincerely, is this a discussion that should not be allowed to happen at all? That’s really the debate here, not whether or not any of these guys have gotten something wrong, but should this speech be allowed or not? You mentioned the term “anti-vax” so I have to ask, what does that even mean? Myself for instance, I’ve had every vaccine my whole life but decided to pass on this one only, am I anti-vax? That’s another term that doesn’t make sense to me. How can one be anti-vax if they only have a concern about 1 vaccine? Ok I’m hungry…bye for now 😁 Hey Josh. Just a couple things to clear up before I gotta run to work. I listened to a good bit of the Rogan/Malone podcast. Not all of it, but a good bit. I agree that it wouldn't be fair to talk about this thing without having some first hand experience with the conversation in question. I started a new job and my schedule is really heavy. Between that and having little kids, I barely get 90 min to myself a day, and I'm not willing to spend all of that time on any media product, be it Joe Rogan or TV shows or whatever. I gotta get a few minutes to just strum a guitar and collect myself. But I did listen to some of this interview cause I wanted to hear it for myself. When I said that study with the bad math became a darling of the "anti-vax" movement, I mean people who bill themselves as exactly that. They are against vaccines and believe they cause all kinds of harm. I know that term can be a pejorative, but I just mean it as descriptive here. Since Covid became this huge political focus, the general "anti-vax" cause has been joined by lots of people who don't identify as being against other vaccines, but have objections to this one, or objections to how it's been handled, or any number of other things. Maybe you fit under this umbrella? I'd defer to you on that. But my reference to "anti-vax" internet getting very excited about the pre-print Canadian study is a reference to people who actively identify as being anti-vaccine. I still don't know if putting pressure on Spotify to pull the Rogan show down is right. I don't have a clear, strong view on this, it's messy. I was just pointing out a few reasons why I personally don't take everything guys like Malone or Kory say as undisputed truth. Again, I don't assume everything they say is false either. I can't comment on McCullough because I haven't looked into him very much. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2022 9:00:57 GMT -6
They are also full of things like this: "Malone references a study where lipid nanoparticles were detected in ovaries of rats. He makes an unfounded connection between menstrual irregularities and lipids in the vaccine as a result. He fails to mention that this study detected less than 0.1% of the total lipids administered in rat ovaries 48 hours after vaccination. That is not a significant accumulation of lipids at all. Menstrual changes have been reported after both mRNA and adenovirus vaccines. Any potential link is likely to be a result of the immune response to vaccination rather than a specific vaccine ingredient. Our uterus is part of our immune system. Anything that affects our immune response (stress of a pandemic, vaccination, COVID-19 itself) can impact menstrual cycles" And this: "Malone claims that because the spike protein of the virus and mRNA vaccines are the same (except for two amino acids), the side effects of them are the same. He fails to mention that the virus itself contains numerous other genes and proteins (a total of 29 proteins) including the spike protein that enable the virus to infect us, reproduce, cause damage to our bodies and cells, and potentially kill us. The spike protein made from the vaccine does not have the additional components that can lead to the type of damage infection with SARS-CoV-2 can." I'm not gonna pretend to be qualified to judge those claims/counter claims, I'm just pointing out that the members of the scientific community objecting to Malone's high profile media stands have more specificity in their complaint than you're giving them credit for. We have a big mess of a thread full of stuff pertaining to Dr. Kory and his claims, so I'm not gonna go there. Malone is a powerful voice for the vaccine-averse cause, though, to be sure. He's extremely credentialed and very qualified by anyone's measure. There's a thing that happens with people sometimes, though, where they have a grievance with their peers and they sort of cash out their professional expertise for fame and attention (Weinstein is one that fits this profile). Note, I'm not claiming that I know that that's what Malone is doing, cause I can't really know that. But he has a grudge about the work he contributed to as a grad student that later led to mRNA development and he has been very vocal about his belief that he was "written out" of the history of mRNA vaccines (despite a couple of his papers still being cited in prominent, current mRNA research). He's also been willing to amplify faulty science. There was that Canadian study showing a really high rate of heart inflammation from the vaccines. It got uploaded to a pre-print server (a newish phenomenon where research gets quasi-published before peer review) and became a darling of the anti-vax crowd almost overnight. Malone promoted the study as proof of the harm vaccines can cause, but then the study got retracted because the math was way, way off. They had the total number of vaccine doses 25x lower than the data showed, resulting in a 25x higher rate of heart inflammation than was actually there. When the math error was pointed out, the studies' authors unanimously withdrew it, but Malone didn't take back any of it or even take down the posts he'd used to amplify it. That's a problem. A guy with his level of scientific training being willing to do that stuff is a red flag for me. So is his use of pseudoscience buzz terms like "mass-formation psychosis" (a fav riff of his during the Rogan interview) with no data behind them. A guy like Malone, when he was still doing research and not activism, would never have been ok with that. He has a real scientific background and stuff like that just wouldn't have flown. It reminds me of a guy like Richard Dawkins. Brilliant scientist who cashes in and makes a big name for himself in the non-scientific world by going way outside the bounds of his actual research. When people who are as experienced and credentialed as Malone stop participating in settings where the stuff they say will have to pass muster with people who know as much as they do about their field, and instead start going on Fox News and Joe Rogan, where they can say whatever they want to an audience who is primed up for the hot contrarian take, it tends to set off my B.S. detector. I mean, how is Rogan supposed to evaluate the stuff a guy like Malone is claiming? I don't blame him for just going "wow...." the whole time. What else is he supposed to say? I get that it's exciting content and very good for business, but I'm not at all sold on the idea that its goal is to get at the truth. You could certainly interpret Malone's flight from the scientific community and toward the Joe Rogans of the world as him just being passionate about his political and professional views. Or you can interpret it as him being done with being a scientist and ready to be a media personality. Either way, he's taking big liberties with his reputation as an expert and has shown a willingness to bend or break the truth. If someone has already decided that Malone is some kind of scientific folk hero, maybe they can overlook that stuff. I can't. So, there are substantial reasons that guys like Malone or Kory aren't credible to me. Doesn't mean I think that everything they say is wrong, nor does it mean that I'm trying to deny the experience and knowledge of a guy like Malone, but it does mean that I don't have faith in them to be reliable witnesses. I’ll try to get into the specifics of your examples sometime later but one could also look at a Malone, Weinstein, etc…and say they have risked everything for what they believe. They believe they see certain things heading in the wrong direction and they feel a responsibility to take a stand. Isn’t that what we’re celebrating Neil Young for? When we talk about “medical professionals” that signed the letter of concern about JRE we have to keep in mind that his guests are also medical professionals. It’s not like he’s had a bunch of spiritual healers on there. Kory & McCollough both have stated their driving force is because they were tired of watching people die of covid with no treatment. They were in the trenches from day one & I believe them. Why would they both testify before congress under penalty of perjury if they were just making up a bunch of stuff to shift careers and sell out? Why are they still treating covid patients to this day if they don’t genuinely care? The funny thing is, the opinions that have been formed about the above mentioned gentlemen have been formed by people on this forum that I’d bet any amount of money have not took the time to watch a single full episode of any of them on JRE. In fact, I'd bet the same that Neil Young hasn't either. So, everyone is welcome to continue to try and cast them as sell outs or frauds but I’m just as politely as I can muster trying to point out that the majority of people aren’t buying it anymore. There was a time(on the covid thread)…and in society in general…where people could just say “conspiracy theorist” or “fraud” or “misinformation” or “that source is no good” and the discussion would be shut down. Those days are over. 2 years into this and people don’t have the patience any longer to sit around & wait for everything to be randomize controlled double blind placeboed. They want to know why next to nothing makes sense. Why does my kid have to wear a mask 8 hours a day at school when my governor keeps getting caught maskless at events I’m not allowed to be at? Why did I get fired from my hospital for passing on this vaccine when my covid positive co-worker can now keep treating patients? Why did you tell me masks don’t work, now I have to wear one walking in the restaurant…sit down to eat, take it off for an hour…then put it back on to walk out. I could go on and on and on. Pardon my french but you can only serve people chicken shit while telling them it’s chicken salad for so long. We are done. I still contend that a sincere discussion on this particular thread has to start with listening to at least Malone & McCullough on JRE(because that is what NY was complaining about). Otherwise, you’re just reading second hand opinions and casting judgment on these guys. The good news is you can listen to somewhere between 4-6 hours straight from the horses mouth. Not interested? Fine, but then don’t be upset if I’m not taking your criticisms of them too seriously. If you do take the time to listen, I bet you’ll find a lot you agree with and some you don’t and that’s fine, I feel the same! After listening though, ask yourself sincerely, is this a discussion that should not be allowed to happen at all? That’s really the debate here, not whether or not any of these guys have gotten something wrong, but should this speech be allowed or not? You mentioned the term “anti-vax” so I have to ask, what does that even mean? Myself for instance, I’ve had every vaccine my whole life but decided to pass on this one only, am I anti-vax? That’s another term that doesn’t make sense to me. How can one be anti-vax if they only have a concern about 1 vaccine? Ok I’m hungry…bye for now 😁 Bravo, bravo, bravo BTW, this kind of thread is why I was a proponent of the “collapse” feature. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2022 9:12:35 GMT -6
I’ll try to get into the specifics of your examples sometime later but one could also look at a Malone, Weinstein, etc…and say they have risked everything for what they believe. They believe they see certain things heading in the wrong direction and they feel a responsibility to take a stand. Isn’t that what we’re celebrating Neil Young for? When we talk about “medical professionals” that signed the letter of concern about JRE we have to keep in mind that his guests are also medical professionals. It’s not like he’s had a bunch of spiritual healers on there. Kory & McCollough both have stated their driving force is because they were tired of watching people die of covid with no treatment. They were in the trenches from day one & I believe them. Why would they both testify before congress under penalty of perjury if they were just making up a bunch of stuff to shift careers and sell out? Why are they still treating covid patients to this day if they don’t genuinely care? The funny thing is, the opinions that have been formed about the above mentioned gentlemen have been formed by people on this forum that I’d bet any amount of money have not took the time to watch a single full episode of any of them on JRE. In fact, I'd bet the same that Neil Young hasn't either. So, everyone is welcome to continue to try and cast them as sell outs or frauds but I’m just as politely as I can muster trying to point out that the majority of people aren’t buying it anymore. There was a time(on the covid thread)…and in society in general…where people could just say “conspiracy theorist” or “fraud” or “misinformation” or “that source is no good” and the discussion would be shut down. Those days are over. 2 years into this and people don’t have the patience any longer to sit around & wait for everything to be randomize controlled double blind placeboed. They want to know why next to nothing makes sense. Why does my kid have to wear a mask 8 hours a day at school when my governor keeps getting caught maskless at events I’m not allowed to be at? Why did I get fired from my hospital for passing on this vaccine when my covid positive co-worker can now keep treating patients? Why did you tell me masks don’t work, now I have to wear one walking in the restaurant…sit down to eat, take it off for an hour…then put it back on to walk out. I could go on and on and on. Pardon my french but you can only serve people chicken shit while telling them it’s chicken salad for so long. We are done. I still contend that a sincere discussion on this particular thread has to start with listening to at least Malone & McCullough on JRE(because that is what NY was complaining about). Otherwise, you’re just reading second hand opinions and casting judgment on these guys. The good news is you can listen to somewhere between 4-6 hours straight from the horses mouth. Not interested? Fine, but then don’t be upset if I’m not taking your criticisms of them too seriously. If you do take the time to listen, I bet you’ll find a lot you agree with and some you don’t and that’s fine, I feel the same! After listening though, ask yourself sincerely, is this a discussion that should not be allowed to happen at all? That’s really the debate here, not whether or not any of these guys have gotten something wrong, but should this speech be allowed or not? You mentioned the term “anti-vax” so I have to ask, what does that even mean? Myself for instance, I’ve had every vaccine my whole life but decided to pass on this one only, am I anti-vax? That’s another term that doesn’t make sense to me. How can one be anti-vax if they only have a concern about 1 vaccine? Ok I’m hungry…bye for now 😁 Hey Josh. Just a couple things to clear up before I gotta run to work. I listened to a good bit of the Rogan/Malone podcast. Not all of it, but a good bit. I agree that it wouldn't be fair to talk about this thing without having some first hand experience with the conversation in question. I started a new job and my schedule is really heavy. Between that and having little kids, I barely get 90 min to myself a day, and I'm not willing to spend all of that time on any media product, be it Joe Rogan or TV shows or whatever. I gotta get a few minutes to just strum a guitar and collect myself. But I did listen to some of this interview cause I wanted to hear it for myself. When I said that study with the bad math became a darling of the "anti-vax" movement, I mean people who bill themselves as exactly that. They are against vaccines and believe they cause all kinds of harm. I know that term can be a pejorative, but I just mean it as descriptive here. Since Covid became this huge political focus, the general "anti-vax" cause has been joined by lots of people who don't identify as being against other vaccines, but have objections to this one, or objections to how it's been handled, or any number of other things. Maybe you fit under this umbrella? I'd defer to you on that. But my reference to "anti-vax" internet getting very excited about the pre-print Canadian study is a reference to people who actively identify as being anti-vaccine. I still don't know if putting pressure on Spotify to pull the Rogan show down is right. I don't have a clear, strong view on this, it's messy. I was just pointing out a few reasons why I personally don't take everything guys like Malone or Kory say as undisputed truth. Again, I don't assume everything they say is false either. I can't comment on McCullough because I haven't looked into him very much. I mean - that’s the crux of the whole issue, right? I don’t agree with everything Malone, et al says either. But I don’t want to live in a nanny state that determines what I should and shouldn’t hear. Like Josh, I’ve had just about every other vaccine available. I’ve also had the Pfizer Covid vaccine. But I respect those that don’t want to get it…especially since it’s scientifically proven that it has no bearing on whether I can get the disease. I didn’t like it when the right was trying to censor music in the era of the “moral majority.” Do I agree with rap lyrics talking about murdering cops or rock songs talking about rape fantasies (I’m just spitballing) - I don’t. But I believe they have the right to say what they want. I actually have an issue with the prevalence of transgender and gender dysphoria that is - at this point - promoted on tv. But I don’t think it should be censored. I think I can turn the channel. |
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Post by ragan on Jan 31, 2022 10:15:08 GMT -6
Hey Josh. Just a couple things to clear up before I gotta run to work. I listened to a good bit of the Rogan/Malone podcast. Not all of it, but a good bit. I agree that it wouldn't be fair to talk about this thing without having some first hand experience with the conversation in question. I started a new job and my schedule is really heavy. Between that and having little kids, I barely get 90 min to myself a day, and I'm not willing to spend all of that time on any media product, be it Joe Rogan or TV shows or whatever. I gotta get a few minutes to just strum a guitar and collect myself. But I did listen to some of this interview cause I wanted to hear it for myself. When I said that study with the bad math became a darling of the "anti-vax" movement, I mean people who bill themselves as exactly that. They are against vaccines and believe they cause all kinds of harm. I know that term can be a pejorative, but I just mean it as descriptive here. Since Covid became this huge political focus, the general "anti-vax" cause has been joined by lots of people who don't identify as being against other vaccines, but have objections to this one, or objections to how it's been handled, or any number of other things. Maybe you fit under this umbrella? I'd defer to you on that. But my reference to "anti-vax" internet getting very excited about the pre-print Canadian study is a reference to people who actively identify as being anti-vaccine. I still don't know if putting pressure on Spotify to pull the Rogan show down is right. I don't have a clear, strong view on this, it's messy. I was just pointing out a few reasons why I personally don't take everything guys like Malone or Kory say as undisputed truth. Again, I don't assume everything they say is false either. I can't comment on McCullough because I haven't looked into him very much. I mean - that’s the crux of the whole issue, right? I don’t agree with everything Malone, et al says either. But I don’t want to live in a nanny state that determines what I should and shouldn’t hear. Like Josh, I’ve had just about every other vaccine available. I’ve also had the Pfizer Covid vaccine. But I respect those that don’t want to get it…especially since it’s scientifically proven that it has no bearing on whether I can get the disease. I didn’t like it when the right was trying to censor music in the era of the “moral majority.” Do I agree with rap lyrics talking about murdering cops or rock songs talking about rape fantasies (I’m just spitballing) - I don’t. But I believe they have the right to say what they want. I actually have an issue with the prevalence of transgender and gender dysphoria that is - at this point - promoted on tv. But I don’t think it should be censored. I think I can turn the channel. Re: censorship, sounds fair to me. I pretty much approach it the same way. I’m certainly not in favor of government doing it. When it comes to a private company deciding what does and doesn’t fly on their platform, that can get thorny, but I usually side with the idea that a given company makes that call themselves. Re: “scientifically proven” that the vaccine has no bearing on whether you get Covid, that’s almost true with the latest variant (“little to no protection against omicron infection according to the most recent studies” would be an accurate way to say it) but that kind of misses the point. The vaccines provide enormous protection against getting seriously ill or dying, which is the only reason this virus is worth taking seriously in the first place. That doesn’t say anything about the rightness or wrongness of any given policy, but equating “it probably won’t stop me from getting infected with the current variant” with some sort of “it doesn’t do anything for me” is incorrect. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jan 31, 2022 10:43:35 GMT -6
Hey Josh. Just a couple things to clear up before I gotta run to work. I listened to a good bit of the Rogan/Malone podcast. Not all of it, but a good bit. I agree that it wouldn't be fair to talk about this thing without having some first hand experience with the conversation in question. I started a new job and my schedule is really heavy. Between that and having little kids, I barely get 90 min to myself a day, and I'm not willing to spend all of that time on any media product, be it Joe Rogan or TV shows or whatever. I gotta get a few minutes to just strum a guitar and collect myself. But I did listen to some of this interview cause I wanted to hear it for myself. When I said that study with the bad math became a darling of the "anti-vax" movement, I mean people who bill themselves as exactly that. They are against vaccines and believe they cause all kinds of harm. I know that term can be a pejorative, but I just mean it as descriptive here. Since Covid became this huge political focus, the general "anti-vax" cause has been joined by lots of people who don't identify as being against other vaccines, but have objections to this one, or objections to how it's been handled, or any number of other things. Maybe you fit under this umbrella? I'd defer to you on that. But my reference to "anti-vax" internet getting very excited about the pre-print Canadian study is a reference to people who actively identify as being anti-vaccine. I still don't know if putting pressure on Spotify to pull the Rogan show down is right. I don't have a clear, strong view on this, it's messy. I was just pointing out a few reasons why I personally don't take everything guys like Malone or Kory say as undisputed truth. Again, I don't assume everything they say is false either. I can't comment on McCullough because I haven't looked into him very much. I mean - that’s the crux of the whole issue, right? I don’t agree with everything Malone, et al says either. But I don’t want to live in a nanny state that determines what I should and shouldn’t hear. Like Josh, I’ve had just about every other vaccine available. I’ve also had the Pfizer Covid vaccine. But I respect those that don’t want to get it…especially since it’s scientifically proven that it has no bearing on whether I can get the disease. I didn’t like it when the right was trying to censor music in the era of the “moral majority.” Do I agree with rap lyrics talking about murdering cops or rock songs talking about rape fantasies (I’m just spitballing) - I don’t. But I believe they have the right to say what they want. I actually have an issue with the prevalence of transgender and gender dysphoria that is - at this point - promoted on tv. But I don’t think it should be censored. I think I can turn the channel. I’d caution against confusing a Canadian musician speaking out against a podcast host with anything that’s anywhere near a “nanny state” |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 31, 2022 11:26:35 GMT -6
Ya, so let’s see, really two people have both exercised their right to freedom of speech: in one case , on a podcast, broadcast for profit, in another case, in a text posted the internet: two people.
The fact is the podcast did provide incorrect health care information about COVID to be disseminated.
The other fact is, another individual called out the host of the podcast publicly for this and gave the platform an ultimatum, which was represent that individual’s music for profit or don’t.
For some Canadian, context, for those of you not current with Cdn politics , our capital( my city), is currently experiencing the centre core around our seat of gov’t being shut down over multiple days by a minority of people protesting reasonable COVID health care measures. They represent no one .
So, they are protesting to the federal government about a provincial area of jurisdiction , pointless, and against US policies requiring vaccination to cross borders, also pointless.
Yesterday, some urinated on our national monuments: the tomb of the unknown soldier, built to respectfully honour all the unidentified soldiers who lost their lives in wars for freedom that Canada participated in.
They also treated very disrespectfully our national monument to Terry Fox, the young man who tried to run across Canada to raise money for scientific research into cancer, with one leg as he fought his own cancer, which prevented him finishing and soon took his life.
These, gratuitously self labelled “freedom fighters “, who represent no one, have also hoisted nazi flags and drawn parallels to Parks in term of her fight against the injustice of racism.
Neil made his call a day or two before all this started happening. Please connect the dots and see how the knowing dissemination of incorrect information , both in the states and in Canada cdn lead to people being misinformed, believing they are being treated unjustly and in some cases exercising their rights to protest to a illegal extreme and cause potential harm and danger to others.
What is so difficult about thinking of others and acting for their well being. We are all tired of COVID and the social restrictions , but we will only get through this by treating each other respectfully and by demonstrating by our actions true concern for others.
Thanks for reading all this context , if you did.
Peace, love, respect and out.
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2022 11:44:39 GMT -6
Lot of "mis-information" going on here it seems......or maybe it's "dis-information". Not sure. I'm just a musician - I always get the two mixed up.  |
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Post by seawell on Jan 31, 2022 11:55:45 GMT -6
Ya, so let’s see, really two people have both exercised their right to freedom of speech: in one case , on a podcast, broadcast for profit, in another case, in a text posted the internet: two people. The fact is the podcast did provide incorrect health care information about COVID to be disseminated. The other fact is, another individual called out the host of the podcast publicly for this and gave the platform an ultimatum, which was represent that individual’s music for profit or don’t. For some Canadian, context, for those of you not current with Cdn politics , our capital( my city), is currently experiencing the centre core around our seat of gov’t being shut down over multiple days by a minority of people protesting reasonable COVID health care measures. They represent no one . So, they are protesting to the federal government about a provincial area of jurisdiction , pointless, and against US policies requiring vaccination to cross borders, also pointless. Yesterday, some urinated on our national monuments: the tomb of the unknown soldier, built to respectfully honour all the unidentified soldiers who lost their lives in wars for freedom that Canada participated in. They also treated very disrespectfully our national monument to Terry Fox, the young man who tried to run across Canada to raise money for scientific research into cancer, with one leg as he fought his own cancer, which prevented him finishing and soon took his life. These, gratuitously self labelled “freedom fighters “, who represent no one, have also hoisted nazi flags and drawn parallels to Parks in term of her fight against the injustice of racism. Neil made his call a day or two before all this started happening. Please connect the dots and see how the knowing dissemination of incorrect information , both in the states and in Canada cdn lead to people being misinformed, believing they are being treated unjustly and in some cases exercising their rights to protest to a illegal extreme and cause potential harm and danger to others. What is so difficult about thinking of others and acting for their well being. We are all tired of COVID and the social restrictions , but we will only get through this by treating each other respectfully and by demonstrating by our actions true concern for others. Thanks for reading all this context , if you did. Peace, love, respect and out. Did you listen to the episodes yet? Not trying to cast aspersions on you but it still sounds like you haven't. I don't think anyone is claiming they got nothing wrong on those episodes. What we are saying is so have others that are in charge, so why should only one side be canceled? All we're interested in is open debate/discussion. Regarding what's going on in Canada, I have family there and if you think the truckers represent no one, then you're in for a rude awakening. Yes, a few numbnuts have done stupid stuff(a crowd will always attract them) but I think they are doing a pretty good job of policing themselves: |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 31, 2022 12:59:48 GMT -6
Thx and No offence Josh, I never said Joe or the podcasts were all wrong, I said I correct health information was knowingly distributed for profit. Joe was apparently paid $100 million to move over and start the podcasts and keeping numbers up are part of the game. I haven’t watched the podcasts and won’t as I don’t support Spotify at all , as I disagree with how it treats artists in terms of streaming reimbursement etc. I became aware of the issue of incorrect information from critiques made of the show on that one issue, not criticizing Joe in general . Like most reasonable people, I have spent a lot of time becoming reasonably knowledgeable about COVID, but when I am out in a retail store still seeing people deliberately ignoring the walking arrows, repeatedly, not wearing their masks properly etc., I think where do these people take their validation from, almost 3 year’s into COVID as the virus actually gets significantly more infectious: it just doesn’t stand to reason. Also, in a personal note my Dad was a Doctor , my eldest Susan’s ICU nurse, my Mom a journalist:, facts, truth and professional accountability matter. Honest mistakes, I accept, but any professional now, either providing incorrect information disseminated recently or not revising such information unacceptable . Anyway, I respect everyone here at rgo and value our friendships and recording camaraderie, although I am sure we have our differences too. I’d rather we agree to disagree , perhaps on specific points, as I definitely do not want to argue with any one here. Back to building some new 6 inch deep absorbers: a less controversial source of benefit ! |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 31, 2022 13:13:13 GMT -6
Ps, the national trucking association is publicly not aligned or supportive of this group of protesters, truckers in Canada are over 90 %. , vaccinated , they have to be to cross the us border by US law.
The protesters are not duly elected officials , that’s what I meant by they represent no one: electorally.
The person who actually started this is an individual who wants the province of Alberta to separate from Canada and who has been involved in other questionable political actions. They are also aligned with know racist and white supremacists groups who are also know to be extreme.
They have amassed roughly 8 million in anonymous donations, which does not give a reasonable person confidence.
Again, I have no problem with them exercising their right to protest, but when that protest impinges and compromises the rights of others, which the protest is doing, I don’t agree with as it is undemocratic and disrespectful of others.
So far, only 1 arrest and no significant violence but there have been documented threats made.
Hopefully, cooler heads prevail, soon. I do not like to think of the alternative or that the whole protest is really a gambit by some who want to create a needless provocation for their own political purposes.
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Post by seawell on Jan 31, 2022 13:20:50 GMT -6
Well, if we're going to continue to accuse Joe and his guests of intentionally spreading misinformation for profit then let's take a closer look at our buddy Neil too: It turns out Neil Young sold 50% rights to his catalog to Hipgnosis Songs Fund in January of 2021 for 150 million. Hipgnois is owned by BlackStone Group. BlackStone hired Jeffrey Kindler as an adviser. Jeffrey Kindler's former gig? Pfizer Chairman & CEO. In June of 2019, BlackStone made an 18.7 billion dollar investment in 179 million square feet of warehouses in the US. Guess who the biggest tenant of those warehouses is? Amazon. 2 days after Neil Young quits Spotify he puts out a special promo code for 4 free months of....drum roll...... AMAZON Music. I'm sure it's all on the up and up though!  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2022 13:37:10 GMT -6
Well, if we're going to continue to accuse Joe and his guests of intentionally spreading misinformation for profit then let's take a closer look at our buddy Neil too: It turns out Neil Young sold 50% rights to his catalog to Hipgnosis Songs Fund in January of 2021 for 150 million. Hipgnois is owned by BlackStone Group. BlackStone hired Jeffrey Kindler as an adviser. Jeffrey Kindler's former gig? Pfizer Chairman & CEO. In June of 2019, BlackStone made an 18.7 billion dollar investment in 179 million square feet of warehouses in the US. Guess who the biggest tenant of those warehouses is? Amazon. 2 days after Neil Young quits Spotify he puts out a special promo code for 4 free months of....drum roll...... AMAZON Music. I'm sure it's all on the up and up though! Well well well |
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Post by ragan on Jan 31, 2022 14:06:30 GMT -6
Yes, I’m sure Neil Young, who has spent his entire life frustrating the hell out of his managers and labels by being a stubborn-ass mule in his refusal to do stuff that would make them lots of money, suddenly took a big interest in one of his former partner’s business advisor’s former company’s real estate deal’s tenant, and it’s that and not his severely disabled kid that has him taking a big stand about medicine and healthcare. 🤔
I mean, shit, maybe this is the real story. But that’s an incredible amount of guesswork to go on, innit?
Seems like we could come up with something spicy for just about any decision anyone has ever made if we give it the 7 Degrees of Kevin Bacon treatment.
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Post by bgrotto on Jan 31, 2022 14:17:53 GMT -6
I for one have lost track of whether this is a communist nanny state takeover or a craven capitalist money-grab.
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Post by christopher on Jan 31, 2022 14:19:15 GMT -6
I've seen the headlines about this, don't care, such a non-issue, meh. HOWEVER.. the way he has been able to CAPITALIZE on this? wow! I bet he sells a boatload of vinyl from this, Apple gets a boat load of new subscribers. After the Pono hell the labels put him through with the stupid pricing plan, and subsequent divorce, selloff of gear, all stemming from failed attempt to raise sound quality which Apple now promotes (after saying it was inaudible for years) he's able to make some waves and get a new generation's feathers ruffled. Damn what an opportunity, and now look JoeRogan gettting his fans all riled up and doubling down, growing his base and realizing he has an opportunity to grow.. everyone happy, except spotify shareholders maybe, LOL.
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Post by seawell on Jan 31, 2022 14:32:58 GMT -6
Yes, I’m sure Neil Young, who has spent his entire life frustrating the hell out of his managers and labels by being a stubborn-ass mule in his refusal to do stuff that would make them lots of money, suddenly took a big interest in one of his former partner’s business advisor’s former company’s real estate deal’s tenant, and it’s that and not his severely disabled kid that has him taking a big stand about medicine and healthcare. 🤔 I mean, shit, maybe this is the real story. But that’s an incredible amount of guesswork to go on, innit? Seems like we could come up with something spicy for just about any decision anyone has ever made if we give it the 7 Degrees of Kevin Bacon treatment. Just showing two can play this game LOL. I haven't seen anyone here critical of Rogan, Weinstein, Malone, etc..put together a list like that. Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't? I've got no problems with people saying those guys got some things wrong(I agree) but it has been repeated several times that they are knowingly spreading misinformation for profit. So...I did a little digging on Neil. All in good fun  Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that he landed with promoting Amazon and not Apple? No corporation is perfect, but man if you're trying to make a moral stance and you align yourself with Amazon that raises some major red flags. There may not be a worse company in history than Amazon. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 31, 2022 14:37:41 GMT -6
I for one have lost track of whether this is a communist nanny state takeover or a craven capitalist money-grab. Both! It's a communist nanny state takeover by craven capitalists posing as socialists. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jan 31, 2022 14:45:32 GMT -6
I for one have lost track of whether this is a communist nanny state takeover or a craven capitalist money-grab. Both! It's a communist nanny state takeover by craven capitalists posing as socialists. 😂Aha! Of course! The stuff of right-minded conspiracy theorists' fever dreams (or nightmares...?)! |
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Post by ragan on Jan 31, 2022 14:46:21 GMT -6
Yes, I’m sure Neil Young, who has spent his entire life frustrating the hell out of his managers and labels by being a stubborn-ass mule in his refusal to do stuff that would make them lots of money, suddenly took a big interest in one of his former partner’s business advisor’s former company’s real estate deal’s tenant, and it’s that and not his severely disabled kid that has him taking a big stand about medicine and healthcare. 🤔 I mean, shit, maybe this is the real story. But that’s an incredible amount of guesswork to go on, innit? Seems like we could come up with something spicy for just about any decision anyone has ever made if we give it the 7 Degrees of Kevin Bacon treatment. Just showing two can play this game LOL. I haven't seen anyone here critical of Rogan, Weinstein, Malone, etc..put together a list like that. Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't? I've got no problems with people saying those guys got some things wrong(I agree) but it has been repeated several times that they are knowingly spreading misinformation for profit. So...I did a little digging on Neil. All in good fun Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that he landed with promoting Amazon and not Apple? No corporation is perfect, but man if you're trying to make a moral stance and you align yourself with Amazon that raises some major red flags. There may not be a worse company in history than Amazon. I mean, by all means, look into motives and credibility for NY or anyone else. But if I said the reason I had credibility issues with Dr. Malone was because his brother-in-law’s former lawyer sold a vacation home to a guy who later became the CEO of Merck or something, well, I’d hope you wouldn’t take that very seriously 😎. Or rather, I hope you’d demand something a lot more solid before you decided I was right about Malone. |
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2022 14:47:54 GMT -6
I for one have lost track of whether this is a communist nanny state takeover or a craven capitalist money-grab. Both! It's a communist nanny state takeover by craven capitalists posing as socialists. Actually, it may be pushing closer to a modern take on fascism..... Merriam Websters :
fas·cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
[edit] : with a sprinkling or dollop of stake-holder capitalism ("capitalism" controlled and directed by the government) thrown in for good measure. I mean....what's not to like about that? They're the government, and they are here to help us!!!  |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 31, 2022 14:59:02 GMT -6
Regarding what's going on in Canada, I have family there and if you think the truckers represent no one, then you're in for a rude awakening. 100%. My closest friend of 20 years lives outside Toronto and would definitely tell you that he's inspired by the truck convoy. I know that at least he and his friends are getting a bit fed up with the "reasonable health measures" that Trudeau has implemented and is continuing to propose long after the previous measures have been shown to be ineffective. That's the biggest thing to me here. None of this stuff adds up. For example, I got Covid two weeks ago but my kids didn't. What's the policy in their school? "Make sure they test negative before you send them in." "Wait, but it should take days for the virus to incubate." "Our policy send them in if they have a negative test otherwise they'll be marked unexcused absent." (Real conversation) And this is a school with a mask mandate making kids eat outside during lunch in any weather. What sense does that make? It's nonsense. Two years in and we all should know better than that, yet the policy makers (including locally) still seem more interested in made up science than they do in empirical science. We have a good idea of basic things like incubation period for example, why do our policies not reflect that? (Answer, because EVERYONE is in close contact all the time with a positive case at this point so nobody would ever go to work and, deep down, everyone knows the virus is not deadly for most. Thankfully.) Oh yeah, here's the coda to that story. Kids tested negative. I kept them home for two days anyway. Then they tested positive. And then, here's the best part, I got a truancy letter for keeping them home those two days. You can't make this stuff up! |
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Post by bgrotto on Jan 31, 2022 15:05:51 GMT -6
Both! It's a communist nanny state takeover by craven capitalists posing as socialists. Actually, it may be pushing closer to a modern take on fascism..... Merriam Websters :
fas·cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
[edit] : with a sprinkling or dollop of stake holder capitalism (controlled and directed by the government) thrown in for good measure. I mean....what's not to like about that? They're the government, and they are here to help us!!! 🤣better hold a bit tighter to those pearls, my friend! A couple seem to have escaped your clutches!😋 |
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Post by seawell on Jan 31, 2022 15:11:51 GMT -6
Just showing two can play this game LOL. I haven't seen anyone here critical of Rogan, Weinstein, Malone, etc..put together a list like that. Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't? I've got no problems with people saying those guys got some things wrong(I agree) but it has been repeated several times that they are knowingly spreading misinformation for profit. So...I did a little digging on Neil. All in good fun  Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that he landed with promoting Amazon and not Apple? No corporation is perfect, but man if you're trying to make a moral stance and you align yourself with Amazon that raises some major red flags. There may not be a worse company in history than Amazon. I mean, by all means, look into motives and credibility for NY or anyone else. But if I said the reason I had credibility issues with Dr. Malone was because his brother-in-law’s former lawyer sold a vacation home to a guy who later became the CEO of Merck or something, well, I’d hope you wouldn’t take that very seriously 😎. Or rather, I hope you’d demand something a lot more solid before you decided I was right about Malone. No, I wouldn't, but if it is was the CEO of Pfizer then I'd be very suspicious 😂 |
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2022 15:14:09 GMT -6
I mean, by all means, look into motives and credibility for NY or anyone else. But if I said the reason I had credibility issues with Dr. Malone was because his brother-in-law’s former lawyer sold a vacation home to a guy who later became the CEO of Merck or something, well, I’d hope you wouldn’t take that very seriously 😎. Or rather, I hope you’d demand something a lot more solid before you decided I was right about Malone. No, I wouldn't, but if it is was the CEO of Pfizer then I'd be very suspicious 😂 He's a veterinarian!!!!! I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw a case of horse dewormer! |
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Post by seawell on Jan 31, 2022 15:15:56 GMT -6
Both! It's a communist nanny state takeover by craven capitalists posing as socialists. 😂Aha! Of course! The stuff of right-minded conspiracy theorists' fever dreams (or nightmares...?)! It was a joke, you'll have to bear with me here my little smiley emoji guys on my macbook pro aren't working at the moment so just assume they are there. |
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Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that he landed with promoting Amazon and not Apple? No corporation is perfect, but man if you're trying to make a moral stance and you align yourself with Amazon that raises some major red flags. There may not be a worse company in history than Amazon. 
Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that he landed with promoting Amazon and not Apple? No corporation is perfect, but man if you're trying to make a moral stance and you align yourself with Amazon that raises some major red flags. There may not be a worse company in history than Amazon.